magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) (09/29/86)
The story of the Fig tree is an example of 'Harvest' as Jesus *states* in Luke. The concept of 'Harvest' or 'Judgement' is a *main* concept in the Bible. After many parables about 'Harvest' 'Judgement' 'Repentance' & 'Fruit' Jesus outlines this parable: Luke 13:5-9 (NIV) " I tell you no! But unless you repent, you will all perish." "Then he [Jesus] told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up soil?' "'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'" As in a sense Jesus 'cut' down the fig with his statement. The 'Fruit' of a tree is likened to the 'Fruit' of a man. And it's death likened to death at the 'Harvest' from an 'unfruitful' life. Matthew 7:19-20 (NIV) " Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them." To back up the idea of 'Harvest'... Luke 10:2 (NIV) "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." And *who* is it that during the 'Harvest' Jesus will cut down ? Jeremiah 8:20 (NIV) "The harvest is past, the summer has ended and we are not saved." & Joel 3:13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow- so great is their wickedness!" The wicked.... And *who* is the 'Lord of the Harvest' ? See above Luke 10:2. All these things go hand in hand with what Jesus did to the Fig tree as in His parable. So what about destroying a the tree to show an idea that he had outlined over and over? Well... Matthew 21:19-20 (NIV) " Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked. Seems just like the story in Luke 13:5... So was it 'right' for him to kill the tree rather than heal it (or even one might ask "Do we have the 'right' question?". I contend if we look at the Scripture Jesus was showing his Authority over Nature (which will also be cast into the fire). Scripture also shows that Man is more important than flowers of the field or the birds of the air. He says the whole world will be Judged - never mind about just a Fig tree! Sort of like a potter busting up the pot and starting over (at the day of Judgement). There are many 'hard' questions in the Bible! But if we judge ourselves first using the Bible and God's counsel. Perhaps we can shed light onto whether we should give advice/judgment to the potter.... For the person who said the destruction of the Fig tree was wanton destruction. Can I ask you does an artist destroy a rock they sculpt into a work of art? The Bible says that through him *all* thing were made and have their being. And what of the Resurrection? He said he was the God of the living not the dead. I think *if* you believe in God, then the Fig tree was just a rock that Jesus sculpted into a testimony of Authority. Let me ask *if* you believed what the Bible said don't you think He could bring the tree back if - He said He could bring *you* back??? It says that He forgets not even the sparrow.... So if the Bible judges the Bible what does it say????? And what does the Bible say that he will bring back after all is said and done? Thinking about the Bible from a context 'outside' the Bible can be likened to thinking of Modern atomic theory from theory 100 years out of date. We just keep on asking the wrong questions because of the context of our understanding. I contend that if you *look* for the internal consistency of the Bible you will find it. Just as we today through knowledge put patterns together from what we see with the tool of science. For science to work we have to ask *good* questions. Many theories may explain an outcome but only time will tell. So please give the Bible some time- Many Christians have with God's help. If you seek with all your heart God will testify to what you learn. And *verify* what countless Christians have come to believe.... I have left out much here but I hope this is a start.... # Mike Gore # Institute for Computer Research. # These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.
marty@ism780c.UUCP (Marty Smith) (09/30/86)
Organization: In article <2589@watdcsu.UUCP> magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) writes: > [Researched Fig tree explanation deleted] I thought it a good and plausible explanation. What troubles me is the following. > Thinking about the Bible from a context 'outside' the Bible can >be likened to thinking of Modern atomic theory from theory 100 years >out of date. Thinking about the Bible using the Bible as the foundation of thought is what, I would say, Christians do when they are being followers of Christ. It is like cleasning one's body in the Christian sauna, and it is a good thing for a Christian to do in order to live a good human life. But in this context, nothing can be said about the truth or falsity of the Bible. All such truths are self-proving. To study the truth or falsity of the Bible requires examination from a greater context, a context in which the Christian comes out of his safe haven and doubts everything. I claim that a Christian who cannot do this, or who is unwilling to accept what he finds by this process, has no faith and is probably not a Christian at all. >We just keep on asking the wrong questions because of the >context of our understanding. I contend that if you *look* for the >internal consistency of the Bible you will find it. If we look for internal consistency under the assumption that what we are examining is internally consistent, we will almost certainly explain away incorrectly any inconsistency we find. >Just as we today >through knowledge put patterns together from what we see with the >tool of science. For science to work we have to ask *good* questions. >Many theories may explain an outcome but only time will tell. So >please give the Bible some time- Many Christians have with God's >help. The Bible has had thousands of years and is no more internally consistent now than it was when it was written. It has undergone many translations; the meanings of words have changed; much of its meaning has been lost. When in science we ask a question that our theories cannot answer, we can look further, develop new theories, and discard old ones. If Christianity has faults, one of them must be that it has not allowed inconsistencies in the Bible to be eliminated in this way. >If you seek with all your heart God will testify to what you >learn. And *verify* what countless Christians have come to believe.... Then why can't I use what I learn to correct the Bible's inconsistencies? >I have left out much here but I hope this is a start.... You have left out much indeed. Marty Smith
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (10/07/86)
In article <2589@watdcsu.UUCP> magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) writes: > The story of the Fig tree is an example of 'Harvest' as > Jesus *states* in Luke. The concept of 'Harvest' or 'Judgement' > is a *main* concept in the Bible. After many parables about > 'Harvest' 'Judgement' 'Repentance' & 'Fruit' Jesus outlines this parable: There are numerous problems with this sort of approach to the Bible. The first is the assumption of uniform analogy: central facets of societies (such as harvest) tend to become richly burdened with multiple meanings and metaphors. On other words, one usage of "harvest" isn't necessarily the same as another. The second problem is the assumption that JC's teachings (as related in the Bible) were sequenced in some sort of progression, rather than produced as required to fit the circumstances JC encountered. Thus, stringing together portions of the Bible that seem related by modern ideas of a theme may produce false patterns. > All these things go hand in hand with what Jesus did to the Fig tree as > in His parable. So what about destroying a the tree to show an idea that > he had outlined over and over? Well... > > Matthew 21:19-20 (NIV) " Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went > up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he > said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately > the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were > amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked. > > Seems just like the story in Luke 13:5... It's questionable whether Luke and Matthew are telling about different incidents or whether one of them has it wrong. > So was it 'right' for him to kill the tree rather than heal it (or even > one might ask "Do we have the 'right' question?". > > I contend if we look at the Scripture Jesus was showing his Authority over > Nature (which will also be cast into the fire). Scripture also shows that JC could have just as easily shown his authority over nature by causing the tree to bear fruit. It's also interesting to note that JC told the apostles that if they had faith, they could also kill trees, and even move mountains. To me, this doesn't sound much different from Satan tempting Jesus. > For the person who said the destruction of the Fig tree was wanton > destruction. Can I ask you does an artist destroy a rock they sculpt into a > work of art? Bad analogy. JC could just as well created a new, bearing tree from nothing. > I contend that if you *look* for the > internal consistency of the Bible you will find it. If you look for anything hard enough, you will find it: if only through self-delusion. I'm sure that thousands of people have found internal consistancy in the Bible: only how many of them agree with each other? So what is their perceived "internal consistency"? Likely nothing more than their own consistency of interpretation. Their delusion is thinking that their consistency is the Bible's. That's why there are thousands of Christian sects out there which can't agree on much at all. -- "Do you want real TRUTH in capital letters? Then search yourself for why you believe the things you do. Don't be afraid to analyze why your religion gives you the high it does. Answer yourself this question: Is TRUTH important enough for me to give up my religion if that is required? Until you answer yes to this you are not being honest with yourself." Dave Trissel -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh