iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) (09/11/86)
In article <392@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: >In article <1082@leadsv.UUCP> hooper@leadsv.UUCP (Ken Hooper) writes: >>... The game originated with a study >>into how magic really works, so I could replace the AD&D system with something >>that wasn't blatantly wrong. The study was so successful that I've now become >>an Animist and a student of The Art (I'm not yet mature enough to be a >>practicing witch, but I am practicing).... > > Holy sh*t! (so to speak) > > Don't tell this to all those people who condemn AD&D because it >leads to witchcraft! :-) What I am curious about is why do people think witchcraft is so bad? Admittedly I don't know much about it, but I would think that unless it involved such questionable activities as involuntary human sacrifice, it should be treated as any other belief system whose main support is derived from FAITH and TRUTH (N.B. this is different from the real thing - faith and truth can be rationalized). I always thought that fear of witches, dark magic, and the perpetual bogie man - Satan, had died out in the middle ages or maybe a little after the hangings at Salem. So, what I want to know is this: Are any of you out there afraid of witches, black magic, or Lucifer himself? HHmmm? Well, maybe that is so direct as to make anyone answering yes seem a fool. Perhaps I should rephrase. Should such a person exist that claims to be a witch, or practise black magic, or worship Satan - would you think that such a person was crazy, bad, or downright evil? To start the ball rolling, I would think that such a person is no more crazy than most Christians and probably alot less evil - they are probably not going to denounce you as witch and burn you at the stake, something Christians have a long history of doing. For those of you who wish to counter by saying that Christians have not burnt anyone recently, let me point out that although the Rev. Fallwell (sp?) and the news media never use fire, they do indeed roast people. :-) - Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson
faustus@ucbcad.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) (09/11/86)
In article <142@zen.BERKELEY.EDU>, iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes: > Well, maybe that is so direct as to make anyone answering yes seem > a fool. Perhaps I should rephrase. Should such a person exist that claims > to be a witch, or practise black magic, or worship Satan - would you think > that such a person was crazy, bad, or downright evil? Well, the poster you are responding to said that he had become an animist - although I don't quite see the point, animism as a religon is a far cry from Satanism. If somebody calls themself a witch, that's fine with me, but if they say they worship Satan, which is quite a different thing, I start to worry... Not that they're going to put a hex on me, but that such a person would have to be pretty unstable to begin with... Assuming of course that he or she means the standard Christian Satan, not Pan whom Satan is derived from... Wayne
cc100jr@gitpyr.UUCP (Joel Rives) (09/12/86)
In article <1021@ucbcad.BERKELEY.EDU> faustus@ucbcad.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) writes: >In article <142@zen.BERKELEY.EDU>, iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes: >> Well, maybe that is so direct as to make anyone answering yes seem >> a fool. Perhaps I should rephrase. Should such a person exist that claims >> to be a witch, or practise black magic, or worship Satan - would you think >> that such a person was crazy, bad, or downright evil? > >Well, the poster you are responding to said that he had become an animist - >although I don't quite see the point, animism as a religon is a far cry >from Satanism. If somebody calls themself a witch, that's fine with me, >but if they say they worship Satan, which is quite a different thing, I >start to worry... Not that they're going to put a hex on me, but that >such a person would have to be pretty unstable to begin with... Assuming >of course that he or she means the standard Christian Satan, not Pan whom >Satan is derived from... > For those of you who find this discussion interesting, I recommend reading talk.religion and/or net.religion. A similar discussion has been going on there for some time. In fact, Lucifer has been - rather intelligently - analogized with Promethius the Titan. The analogy began with the statement that both were considered to have brought knowledge and enlightenment from the realm of the gods to mankind. In Lucifer's case it was through the Tree of Knowledge - the biblical story of the Eve and the Serpent. In Promethius's case, the Greek legends call him the fire bringer. He is reported as having not only brought fire to man but knowledge of various arts and crafts. Lucifer was cast into Hell by The Judeo-Christian god for his rebelious nature. Promethius was chained to a mountain where a vulture perpetually ate his liver - which continuously regenerated (Remember that one GM's when you're looking for a particularly nasty way to torture info out of a PC wearing a ring of regeneration :-). In Prometheus' case, he was lucky enough to have Heracles wander by and free him. Lucifer, it seems is still roasting away in the pits of Hell. Now that would make for an interesting adventure for some great Hero - wouldn't it? Heh heh! As for witchcraft (or wicca as it's followers prefer), it is one of the oldest known forms of worship and - contrary to popular belief - does not involve living sacrifices. I agree with the previous poster, the records show that wicca is far more tollerant of christianity than christianity has been of wicca (or any other religion for that matter) -- Joel Rives USENET: gatech!gitpyr!cc100jr BITNET: gatech!gitvm1!cc100jr "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are!" << Buckaroo Banzai >>
za56@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Brian McNeill) (09/13/86)
In article <142@zen.BERKELEY.EDU> iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: > > > Well, maybe that is so direct as to make anyone answering yes seem >a fool. Perhaps I should rephrase. Should such a person exist that claims >to be a witch, or practise black magic, or worship Satan - would you think >that such a person was crazy, bad, or downright evil? > Witches (Wicca) are an ancient sect of "pagans" (so called by Xians) that worshipped Nature (sorta like Druids...somebody correct me if Im wrong!)...in the middle ages, Witches were persecuted because they followed a different religion...thusly, the Xians started spreading rumors that Witches worshipped Lucifer Malfkrieg, etc...and even changed the Bible against them (the passage in the King James Bible reading "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" read in the original Hebrew, "Thou shalt not suffer a POISONER to live AMONG YOU"! Major change here, and one that cost hundreds of thousands of innocent women to burn/hang/be pressed to death!) > To start the ball rolling, I would think that such a person is no more >crazy than most Christians and probably alot less evil - they are probably not >going to denounce you as witch and burn you at the stake, something Christians >have a long history of doing. For those of you who wish to counter by saying >that Christians have not burnt anyone recently, let me point out that although >the Rev. Fallwell (sp?) and the news media never use fire, they do indeed >roast people. :-) > Bingo...and a lot less bloodthirsty, I would say, also...after all, the Wicca did not start an Inquisition, several religious wars, a few hundred thousand burnings, etc (in all, I would say that Xianity has been one of the worst scourges in all of history, outkilling the Black Plague...and its something for which there appears to be no cure!) And whose to say that if Falwell gets his way there won't be more witch burnings around (not to mention infringement upon all of my rights...like my right to read anything I damned well please, even if it is anti-Xian, or whatever...) > >- Tim Iverson > iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU > ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson /-----------------------------------------------------------\ | Brian McNeill ARPA : za56@sdcc3.ucsd.edu | | HASA "A" Division UUCP : ...!sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc3!za56 | |-----------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim all knowledge of opinions, | | expressed or implied, including this disclaimer. | | Flames ---> /dev/null | \-----------------------------------------------------------/
hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) (09/16/86)
In article <142@zen.BERKELEY.EDU> iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: > What I am curious about is why do people think witchcraft is so bad? >Admittedly I don't know much about it, but I would think that unless it >involved such questionable activities as involuntary human sacrifice, it >should be treated as any other belief system whose main support is derived >from FAITH and TRUTH (N.B. this is different from the real thing - faith >and truth can be rationalized). Since this seems to be an actual request for information I guess I can answer it, even though it will probably collect flames. I refuse to read any of the religion newsgroups so if you insist on flaming me from that corner, please use mail. People in net.games.frp who are bored by this can either hit "n" or read it for the ideas about how and WHY people think what they do. Witchcraft is believed by most people, Christian or not, to be associated with the malevolent summoning of spirits and demonic forces in order to take magical revenge on other people, or to in some way achieve power over them. Note that this is what most people BELIEVE to be the case. The historic persecution of Witches in western history is in some ways tied to the change from a society where women were, if not equal in all roles, at least valued for their own traditional roles. The increase in male-sexist social roles, especially in the prevalence of male doctors, resulted in the women's healing arts being labeled "magic". Of course, not all who practiced those arts were women. Anyway, the herbal medicine of northern Europe was identified with black magic. Since this herbal tradition was often also connected with some of the pagan beliefs, and the pagan deities were labelled as demons and such by Christians, the various traditional pictures of witches arose as cauldron-stirring hags who lived in forests and had magical powers. Three other things happened which resulted in the western view of witches. First, in Europe, the Ergot fungus spread and destroyed much of the wheat harvest there. Ergot poisoning results in some specific, peculiar symptoms which include partial paralysis, sexual hallucinations and hallucinations of flying, and a specific paranoia: strong overwhelming dread that the mind is being taken over by evil "voices" from outside. It can cause uncontrolled twitching, jerky dance-like spasms, all sorts of things which were attributed to witches and the "evil eye" and since "witches" often KNEW better than to eat ergot-rotted wheat, their own immunity was proof of their guilt. Second, the Black Plague came. Nobody knew what caused it, nobody knew how to cure or prevent it. Clearly it was the work of some evil thing. Thirdly, in America, the slave trade brought some isolated, rather despised people to Haiti; a group of cultish types who practiced a "death magic" which has come to be called Voudoo. The things taught by this cult were brought to America by Haitian slaves, and in the paranoid, cultish and insular environment of the Puritans, some of these slaves taught particular kinds of magic to the children they raised, thus the Salem witch-hunts. Incidentally, Cotton Mather was greatly maligned by a political opponent and was NOT the bogey-man he is presented as being in most history books. > I always thought that fear of witches, dark magic, and the perpetual >bogie man - Satan, had died out in the middle ages or maybe a little after >the hangings at Salem. So, what I want to know is this: Are any of you out >there afraid of witches, black magic, or Lucifer himself? HHmmm? A lot of people ARE "afraid" of what you so quaintly call "the perpetual bogie man". They believe that the Enemy is trying to separate them from their God. Some people are warm, safe, and happy in their materialism or atheism or whatever other religion they believe in, and thus feel free to mock and sneer at those others for their beliefs. > Well, maybe that is so direct as to make anyone answering yes seem >a fool. Perhaps I should rephrase. Should such a person exist that claims >to be a witch, or practise black magic, or worship Satan - would you think >that such a person was crazy, bad, or downright evil? > > To start the ball rolling, I would think that such a person is no more >crazy than most Christians and probably alot less evil - they are probably not >going to denounce you as witch and burn you at the stake, something Christians >have a long history of doing. For those of you who wish to counter by saying >that Christians have not burnt anyone recently, let me point out that although >the Rev. Fallwell (sp?) and the news media never use fire, they do indeed >roast people. :-) If a person claims to practice black magic, depending on the methods used, you bet I'd think them pretty crazy and pretty evil. I used to try to do that myself, and the psychological effects alone are pretty damaging to the practitioner. As for someone claiming to "worship" Satan, that depends on what they thought Satan was. A basic premise held by many Christians is that ANY worship of any deity OR THING other than the One True God is in the end a worship of Satan. I won't necessarily go this far, but in the context of Christian belief, where only the One True God DESERVES worship, where the act of worship is the act of acknowledging Holiness, rightness and goodness, then any worship of anything less than Him Who is Holy is an act in the SERVICE of the Enemy. As far as judging Christians now by the acts of Christians in the past, please recall that there is no group of people on this planet at any time who can be proud the whole history of their group. I promise not to judge you because your great-grandfather was a slave trader (if indeed he was) if you promise not to judge me because my great-great-grandfather took scalps. Hutch
wex@milano.UUCP (09/18/86)
In article <7638@tekecs.UUCP>, hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) provides a nice summary of how "witches" came to be regarded the way they are in our culture. He leaves out a bit, though, when he writes: > Thirdly, in America, the slave trade brought some isolated, rather despised > people to Haiti; a group of cultish types who practiced a "death magic" > which has come to be called Voudoo. The things taught by this cult were > brought to America by Haitian slaves, and in the paranoid, cultish and > insular environment of the Puritans, some of these slaves taught particular > kinds of magic to the children they raised, thus the Salem witch-hunts. This is true, but incomplete. Most of the original slaves came from Africa. Most of the tribes they were stolen (or sold) from believed in various kinds of magic: spirits, gods, animism, etc. Many had shaman and/or witch doctors and they practised several kinds of ritual magic. In addition, many of the Africans were skilled in herbal and other natural forms of medicine. Some of these were undoubtedly seen as magic by medically-ignorant colonists. Lastly, many Native American tribes had similar practices and, in addition, often used narcotic or hallucinogenic substances in their ceremonies. These tribes probably also had some influence on the Europeans (especially those that were taken back to Europe as `showpieces'). -- Alan Wexelblat ARPA: WEX@MCC.ARPA or WEX@MCC.COM UUCP: {seismo, harvard, gatech, pyramid, &c.}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!wex "All that money makes such a succulent sound."
cjdb@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Charles Blair) (09/25/86)
> The powers controled by shamans however ARE NOT subject to spiritual > laws. These 'powers','unseen advisers', etc. are demons willingly giving > power in exchange for domination of the shaman. Demons give shamans power > . . . How do you know this? I should like to suggest that you read Eliade's Shamanism, then make an *informed* opinion on the subject. (Sorry if that's a tad harsh.) -- Charles Blair ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!cjdb The University of Chicago lib.cb%chip@UChicago.Bitnet
barry@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Mikki Barry) (09/26/86)
I can understand the superstition, the fear, the misunderstanding of witchcraft, and the assuption that witches worship themselves, etc. etc. But when I read this, I almost choked In article <188@wheaton> jody@wheaton.UUCP (J. Lee Johnson) writes: > Shamans as people have as many rights to a free life as any other >human whose punishment has been paid by Christ's death. This does not >mean that their teachings and beliefs may go unchallenged. The >responsibility of those who have accepted Christ's sacrifice is to >counter the philosophies of those who haven't. Look, Bub. Say what you want about my religion, but don't start this "I must challenge your beliefs and counter your philosophies" nonsense. Why not live and let live? You believe your way, and I will believe mine. Jody's paragraph seems to state the basic problem between christians and the rest of the world. The "my religion is right and yours is wrong" routine which seems to put a frenzy of "pagan bashing" into the heads of those who would like to believe they really can change the thinking of non christians. Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"? BTW, how would you feel if the pagans, witches, shamans, sorcerers, or whatever you want to call us, decided that since you are so deluded and obviously won't go to your post-earthly reward, that we have taken it upon ourselves to "educate" you to the lies of christianity in order to save your immortal soul? Would this be any different than your preceeding paragraph? Why or why not? Mikki Barry HASA --------------------------------------- "There is nothing rationally desirable that cannot be achieved if rationality itself increases"
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (09/26/86)
It should not be forgotten that the Church also had pragmatic reasons for
persecuting witches: dissatisfaction with the Church was widespread, and
was taking practical forms here and there. It was very useful to have a
dangerous and insidious enemy which only the Church could fight effectively.
The transition of Church policy on witchcraft from tolerant unconcern to
fierce and vigorous opposition followed the rise of the Church's practical
problems pretty closely.
--
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henrythain@magic.UUCP (10/07/86)
(This original appeared in net.games.frp.) In article <3832@robin.cs.nott.ac.uk>, gas@cs.nott.ac.uk (G Alan Shepherd) writes: > > It seems to me that much criticism has been directed at Christians > concerning the issue of 'wicca' without anyone actually representing the > Christian viewpoint. Actually, the Christian viewpoint on this subject is expressed time and time again in newspapers, books, movies, even Congress where bills are introduced by "Christians" to remove the practice of witchcraft and other pagan beliefs from this country. The cry that is heard is that tired old misquoted passage, " suffer not to let a witch live among you!" > In times past, much 'evil' has been committed in the name of > Christianity (e.g. witch hunts), but the very valid comment has been made > that it is unfair to judge a group by the actions of past members or even by > the present members. But in this case some of the present members are actively attempting to repress another group of people from worshipping as they see fit. As valid as the comment is, so far as past transgressions are concerned, let us not lose sight of the fact that the present majority membership *should* be held accountable for their actions. > Because of the Christian creed, it makes even less sense to do this with > Christians. Why? Why should I, or any other pagan, give such lattitude which will not be returned? It is *exactly because* of this creed you speak of that Christians should be held accountable. > The whole point of the Christian Gospel is that men are > imperfect and need the Divine intervention of God in their lives. This > doesn't mean that a Christian will be perfect, only that he is forgiven and > will gradually be made into a more Christlike person. Of course, as any real > Christian will know, living in the garage doesn't necesssarily mean that > you're a car (as the Borgia popes for example might testify to.) This is not a reason to allow others to persecute pagans. Especially Christians who shout that they have nothing against pagans, but allow their fellow Christians to persue zealously the art of "pagan bashing". ( I put this in for Ken Anrdt. ;-) > Regarding witches, of course Christians believe that they commit > sinful deeds (as does everyone, incidentally), but God does, and Christians > should, still love the people themselves. Why do you think Jesus died ? It > was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us. However, since God > has obviously gone to a lot of trouble to forgive us, it would seem pointless > if there were other ways out and so we have to have an 'intolerant' attitude > to other religions especially since Jesus Himself said that He is the way and > that noone goes to the Father except by Him. Well spoken. > This doesn't mean that we should erradicate all non-belivers, but rather try > to show them the truth of the Bible in as caring as way as possible. After > all, the Bible seems to indicate that all non-Christians will go to Hell - > not because we're exclusive, but because they haven't accepted God's > forgiveness - and none of us want that, anymore than God does. I'd just settle for peace and quiet myself! ;-) Seriously though, your comments are well taken. Sometimes it's easier to keep shouting instead of listening. Both of the respective camps do that from time to time though. Happy Trails, Glenn HASA Tri-Party CoFounder thain@src.dec.com