gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (09/26/86)
In article <2754@pogo.UUCP> daveb@pogo.UUCP (Dave Butler) writes: >>Jesus was probably the most remembered character in human history. More >>books have been written, more songs sung, more paintings painted, more great >>drama written than any other figure in the past. [Kiki Herbst] >Oh wow! Deja Vu! Well Kiki, I hate to burst your bubble, but the most widely >remembered and enshrined person in history is Siddartha (also called Buddha). >There are more artistic representations of Siddartha than of any other human >(Hell, even the game _Trivial_Pursuits_ knows that). Also, Buddha lived over >a thousand years before Jesus was born. That's an additional thousand years >to be forgotten, but his fame just keeps on growing. I don't know on what basis you claim Gautama is "more remembered" than Jesus. Certainly, I would advise you are anyone against believing *anything* you "learned" playing Trivial Pursuits. To give one example of the non-history they peddle, they give Percival Lowell as the discoverer of the planet Pluto. Alas, Lowell died *fifteen years* before Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto! I see you did not bother to check your "data" with a real reference source, or you would have noticed that Gautama *did not* live more than a thousand years before Jesus. Estimates give the number of (at least) nominal Christians as much greater than any other religion, Buddhism included, despite the somewhat inaccurate estimates you give later in your article. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 This posting was made possible by a grant from the Mobil Corporation
za56@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Brian McNeill) (09/27/86)
In article <15818@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >In article <2754@pogo.UUCP> daveb@pogo.UUCP (Dave Butler) writes: >>There are more artistic representations of Siddartha than of any other human >>(Hell, even the game _Trivial_Pursuits_ knows that). Also, Buddha lived over >>a thousand years before Jesus was born. That's an additional thousand years >>to be forgotten, but his fame just keeps on growing. > > I don't know on what basis you claim Gautama is "more remembered" than >Jesus. Certainly, I would advise you are anyone against believing *anything* >you "learned" playing Trivial Pursuits. If you'd read his article he never said that he learned this fact from Trivial Pursuit, he only said that Trivial Pursuit managed to get this one right...as to the rest, he is correct...more books, artwork, poetry, and whatnot has been written about Siddhartha than about any other man ever living (just check your local University library...) You did get one thing right though...Buddha did not live 1000 years before Christ...more like 600 years (still an awfully big gap there...) >before Jesus. Estimates give the number of (at least) nominal Christians as >much greater than any other religion, Buddhism included, despite the >somewhat inaccurate estimates you give later in your article. > Not completely true...the number of nominal Xians (Protestanst and Catholics) is roughly 1 billion, divided into 700 mil Catholic and 300 mil Protestant. This is approximately 20% of the world population...seems odd for a religion that claims absolute truth... as to the rest, Buddhists have 600 mil members, Hindu 500 mil, Muslims about 250 (I think...Im trying to recall this from memory), and so on...Xians still constitute a minority, albeit the largest minority in the whole...most people are still non Xian, and this seems to me to be a fairly good reason to question the validity of Xianity (as well as other world religions)...since if God were Xian, he probably would have a HELL of a lot more convincing evidence than he has now (a 20% saved rate AT BEST is pretty miserable for an omnipotent God who sent his Son to Earth 2000 years ago...) Think of that...80% (thats 4+ BILLION PEOPLE) of the world's population is condemned to hell (not forgetting the billions who have died and are already presumably burning)...this seems to indicate to me an at best indifferent God, and certainly not a benevolent God... >ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 > This posting was made possible by a grant from the Mobil Corporation /-----------------------------------------------------------\ | Brian McNeill ARPA : za56@sdcc3.ucsd.edu | | HASA "A" Division UUCP : ...!sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc3!za56 | |-----------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim all knowledge of opinions, | | expressed or implied, including this disclaimer. | | Flames ---> /dev/null | \-----------------------------------------------------------/
magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) (09/29/86)
.... and we read things like: >library...) You did get one thing right though...Buddha did not >live 1000 years before Christ...more like 600 years (still an >awfully big gap there...) The Bible says that Christ was with God in the beginning. That Christ *is* the word of God see prophecy and read *who* is the 'word' in Revelation. Read Psalm 22 then get a good Concordance to point you to the Verses starting in the OT. Lot's of verses in the OT about the Christ to come (even where he would be born...) 2000 years ago... Just a thought :-) >ago...) Think of that...80% (thats 4+ BILLION PEOPLE) of the >world's population is condemned to hell (not forgetting the billions ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Where does the Bible state this (it doesn't - no not just the number) God said He is the God of the living *not* the dead. They haven't been judged *yet*. And will be judged by what they *know* - as to what *they* know (do you know all 4 + BILLION?) -read... You should not put numbers to things like this because God said Judgment is mine (God's of course). You assume he is BAD which isn't what the Bible states... And you *think* you use the Bible to back you up!... How does the Bible state that God will reveal Himself to Christians so they can ultimately say there is truth in the Bible. If it were not for that -you could not argue anything with 'it' -as a closed system devoid of history or of God... (circular....) You seem not to know enough of the Bible to make sense of it. - does take work and you have to *want* too. God/Christ will make the rest clear once you repent and seek God.... Keep looking... # Mike Gore # Institute for Computer Research. # These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.
pmd@cbdkc1.UUCP (Paul M. Dubuc) (09/29/86)
In article <2592@watdcsu.UUCP> magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) writes: > >>ago...) Think of that...80% (thats 4+ BILLION PEOPLE) of the >>world's population is condemned to hell (not forgetting the billions > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Where does the Bible state this (it doesn't - no not just the number) >God said He is the God of the living *not* the dead. They haven't been >judged *yet*. And will be judged by what they *know* - as to what >*they* know (do you know all 4 + BILLION?) -read... You should not put >numbers to things like this because God said Judgment is mine >(God's of course). You assume he is BAD which isn't what the Bible states... >And you *think* you use the Bible to back you up!... How does the Bible >state that God will reveal Himself to Christians so they can ultimately >say there is truth in the Bible. If it were not for that -you could not >argue anything with 'it' -as a closed system devoid of history or of God... >(circular....) > > You seem not to know enough of the Bible to make sense of it. > - does take work and you have to *want* too. God/Christ will make the rest >clear once you repent and seek God.... A good point is made here, I think, and it points out a subtile tactic of many debunkers: They take all their evidence against God from the Bible (assuming it for the sake of argument to be true) then reject the Bible's theocentric claims about God's character using their own (anthropocentric) moral standard. Of course, God comes out guilty every time. God is accused of having a double standard by a double standard. Where theism is concerned, God IS the standard and I think he does act consistently within that, as it has been revealed. It is certianly no suprise that he often does not follow our temporal standards. Anyway, Christianity does make provision for everyone to take the issue up with God personally at some point. -- Paul Dubuc cbdkc1!pmd
gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (10/02/86)
In article <3584@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU> za56@sdcc3.UUCP (Brian McNeill) writes: >In article <15818@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >>>There are more artistic representations of Siddartha than of any other human >>>(Hell, even the game _Trivial_Pursuits_ knows that). Also, Buddha lived over >>>a thousand years before Jesus was born. That's an additional thousand years >>>to be forgotten, but his fame just keeps on growing. [Dave Butler] >> I don't know on what basis you claim Gautama is "more remembered" than >>Jesus. Certainly, I would advise you are anyone against believing *anything* >>you "learned" playing Trivial Pursuits. [Gene Smith] >If you'd read his article he never said that he learned this fact >from Trivial Pursuit, he only said that Trivial Pursuit managed to >get this one right...as to the rest, he is correct...more books, >artwork, poetry, and whatnot has been written about Siddhartha than >about any other man ever living (just check your local University >library...) You did get one thing right though...Buddha did not >live 1000 years before Christ...more like 600 years (still an >awfully big gap there...) If I got "one thing right" can I assume I got the rest wrong? Fine. Name *one* factual error I made in the article you are responding to, and you will have revenged yourself for my "more non-history" stuff. I happen to have read some of these vast numbers of books about Jesus and Gautama. In them I have occasionally run across claims like yours, Dave Butler's, and Kiki Herbst's. I have *never* run across evidential support or citations to back up these claims. My own opinion is that you, Dave and Kiki are all talking through your respective hats, and that you have no factual basis for your claims, one way or the other. Your insouciant flipness in saying "check your local Univerity library" doesn't help much. It is a big library; what do you want me to check in it? ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 "What is algebra exactly? Is it those three-cornered things?"J.M. Barrie
daveb@pogo.UUCP (10/05/86)
Haven't had time to respond to the net lately, so my responce have sort
of backed up. Among other things I'd thought I'd reply to Gene Ward Smith,
who pointed out that:
a) my placing the Buddha at 1000 bc was mistake.
b) _Trivial_Pursuits_ isn't the best of references to prove that
Buddha is the man most represented in art, rather that Jesus.
Genes right on the first point, Siddhartha lived in the 6th bc, not the 10th.
I admit it Gene, I popped off a quick reply to Kiki, without going to my
library first. I wrote it to the best of my memory, but I obviously blew
it. It may have been that I confused the advent of Buddhism with of the
beginning of Hinduism, which was before 1000 bc (approx 1500 bc). After
all most Hindus worship Buddha as one of the incarnations of Vishnu. On
the other hand I could have just plain screwed up. Thanks for correcting me.
Since I expect to correct others when I see that they have some facts wrong,
I also expect others to correct me when I'm wrong. Of course, this means that
I'll be taking a little longer to reply, so that I can check up on all my
"facts".
As to _Trivial_Pursuits_ not being a sufficient source, I've now checked
the Guiness (sp?) Book of World Records. They say the man with the most
Statues, Busts and figurines is ... Lenin, (second is Mao). Something tells
me that Kiki isn't going to like that answer either. Since I now have two
conflicting sources, I am going to write the _Trivial_Pursuits_ people
and find out what their source is. I'll inform the net of any answer.
Enjoyed this Immensely,
Dave Butler
Its more important to know what is correct, rather than who is correct.
Remember: Silly is a state of Mind, Stupid is a way of Life.cc100jr@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Joel Rives) (10/08/86)
In article <1604@cbdkc1.UUCP> pmd@dkc1.UUCP (Paul M. Dubuc) writes: > >time. God is accused of having a double standard by a double standard. >Where theism is concerned, God IS the standard and I think he does act If so, which god? The point of introducing actual figures into the discussion [See the article to which Paul is replying for further information] is to dispell any illusion that Christianity represents anything more than a small minority of people in the world. I would like to add to this that, considering our technical level of mass communication and transportation, undoubtably a large portion of those who do not profess Christianity have come in contact with it and have chosen - for various reasons I am sure - to maintain their faith that the god they worship is of greater value to them than the Christian god. What we seem to have here is an even smaller percentage of the Christian community (a sect, if you will) which insists on standing up and proclaiming that their way is "THE ONLY WAY" and that all others should accept this without question. At the same time, we have the vast majority of people in the world either ignoring these few statistical anomalies or, in some cases, when the shouts of these few are directed towards them, we see an occasional appeal to "sit down, shut up and stop making such a damnable fool of yourself" >consistently within that, as it has been revealed. It is certianly no >suprise that he often does not follow our temporal standards. Anyway, >Christianity does make provision for everyone to take the issue up with >God personally at some point. >-- Nothing can be much of a suprise where faith is concerned. I am interested in knowing more of your thoughts upon this "provision" that Christiantity makes with regards to everyone. Thanks. -- Joel Rives gatech!gitpyr!cc100jr There is no place to seek the mind; It is like the footprints of the birds in the sky.