orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) (09/10/86)
> kan@ihlpg.UUCP (Casali) writes: > ... > >California (and there is numerous other speices where the same > >can be said). Much of this could or would is happening in Africa > >and Asia where there is large increases in population. The African > >famines is direct related to over population. > > Can we straighten out one thing? Overpopulation does not CAUSE famine. > Famine comes about when natural causes or government ineptness reduces the > amount of food available to a given population. No reputable scientist has > ever suggested (as far as I know) that the world is so limited in natural > resources that it cannot support the current population of humans. Most of > what the ZPG people and other fanatical groups put out is simply > statistics-twisting propaganda. > > Tom Albrecht Most scientists who are knowledgeable about the ecology of the Sahel in Africa blame the increasing advance of the Sahara Desert on *precisely* the effects of overpopulation with the established social system and production patterns which have led to deforestation, overgrazing and ultimately desertification. Ever take the time to look at a path trodden by hundreds of people across a college campus, a park, or anywhere else? You won't see much grass growing there, and certainly it would be ludicrous to plant a garden. The reason is simple : the effects of the daily traversal of the path by hundreds of people. *Without* those hundreds of people taking the path grass might do fine. But with it, nothing will ever grow. Are you going to deny not only the findings of reputable scientists and ecologists but also what is obvious in sheer common sense?? How do YOU explain the Dust Bowl, Mr. Albrecht? State mismanagement of agriculture? Of course, you would be absolutely right. The government did very little if anything to teach the private farmers of our country about the potentially devastating effects of erosion. After the tragedy of the Dust Bowl the Agriculture Dept. made sure to stress to farmers the importance of preventing erosion using the Agricultural Extension Service agents. Why don't you talk to one and see what they say about excessive loads on the land? Speaking of Agricultural Extension agents, one of the reasons given for Zimbabwe's success as the most agriculturally productive nation in Africa is their emulation of the American extension agent idea coupled with an agricultural system dominated by many independent producers. Of course, Ronald Reagan proposed firing all agriculture extension agents to cut the budget. I prefer to avoid personal insults but postings like the above really make me wonder if some of the Propertarians on this net are sheer idiots. (please accept my apology for this insult but I am becoming exasperated with repeated ignorant diatribes like the above!) tim sevener whuxn!orb
orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) (09/10/86)
> >... > >Shall we breed ourselves into abject poverty and starvation? > > tim sevener whuxn!orb > > Why not begin to look at people as a resource, for production, rather than > simply a consumer of resources. Of course your thinking is limited by your > socialist views of humans as mere tools of society, something to be > inventoried and limited when the need arises. > > Tom Albrecht *** FLAME ON *** YOU HAVE MADE ME VERY ANGRY!! YOU have the AUDACITY to claim that I and others who are doing whatever we can to feed the hungry, who have contributed to groups like Oxfam America which provides TOOLS and seeds so that starving people can grow their own food and not rely on subsidies forever, that WE are the ones who view humans "as mere tools of society. Maurice Demierre was a Swiss Catholic who went to Central America to live among the poor and help to bring them a better life. He was murdered by Reagans band of terrorists. I myself have yet to join the Peace Corps or the American Friends Service Committee but I know other people who have eschewed the luxuries of life in America to go live in the Third World, where thirty children die EVERY MINUTE, not every day, not every hour but EVERY MINUTE from HUNGER and STARVATION. This is a fact, Mr. Albrecht, and you and others of your ilk have already stated that you don't care one good g****mned about it. "Let them eat sand" seems to be your motto for the starving in the Sahel, "Let them eat bullets" for the hungry victims of the Death Squads in El Salvador and Chile. Well, if you don't care that thirty children died of hunger in the time in which you read this article, that is your right. But to imply that caring people throughout the world who are doing what they can, including population control, to stop the senseless deaths of 30 children a minute from starvation simply view humans as "tools" is an absolute outrage. *** FLAME OFF *** I have tried to stick to facts and logic but I have had it up to here with this brand of selfcentered greedy idiocy. Now that I have vented my spleen, I will return to more rational exposition. tim sevener whuxn!orb
colonel@sunybcs.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) (09/11/86)
> As I understand it, there is a large outcry these days for an > increase in the birth rate in the United States. I don't know about that, but it suggests a shift in national policy. A large population is good if you intend to prosper by going to war; the more soldiers the better. But a large population is a handicap if you intend to prosper by international commerce; the more mouths you have to feed, the more desperate you will be and the worse bargains you will agree to. (How's that for a simplistic analysis?) "Us, and them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose to do" --R. Waters -- Col. G. L. Sicherman UU: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel CS: colonel@buffalo-cs BI: colonel@sunybcs, csdsicher@sunyabva
bill@sigma.UUCP (William Swan) (09/16/86)
In article <2644@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >> >Can we straighten out one thing? Overpopulation does not CAUSE famine. >Famine comes about when natural causes or government ineptness reduces the >amount of food available to a given population. No reputable scientist has >ever suggested (as far as I know) that the world is so limited in natural >resources that it cannot support the current population of humans. Most of >what the ZPG people and other fanatical groups put out is simply >statistics-twisting propaganda. Overpopulation may not cause famine DIRECTLY.. but it is certainly a large contributing factor. To suggest that the ZPG-type groups are twisting statistics because there are lots of natural resources for everybody is to be twisting the statistics yourself. There's a big difference between the mere existance of resources _somewhere_ and having them right where you need them. Are you saying that because it rains a lot in Seattle we ought to be able to end the drought in Africa (or even the South)? You'd find a lot of people here quite willing to ship it over. :-)
devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (09/25/86)
orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >> [I said] >> Can we straighten out one thing? Overpopulation does not CAUSE famine. >> Famine comes about when natural causes or government ineptness reduces the >> amount of food available to a given population. No reputable scientist has >> ever suggested (as far as I know) that the world is so limited in natural >> resources that it cannot support the current population of humans. Most of >> what the ZPG people and other fanatical groups put out is simply >> statistics-twisting propaganda. > >Most scientists who are knowledgeable about the ecology of the Sahel >in Africa blame the increasing advance of the Sahara Desert on >*precisely* the effects of overpopulation with the established >social system and production patterns which have led to deforestation, >overgrazing and ultimately desertification. ... >How do YOU explain the Dust Bowl, Mr. Albrecht? >State mismanagement of agriculture? >Of course, you would be absolutely right. The government did >very little if anything to teach the private farmers of our >country about the potentially devastating effects of erosion. >After the tragedy of the Dust Bowl the Agriculture Dept. made >sure to stress to farmers the importance of preventing erosion >using the Agricultural Extension Service agents. >Why don't you talk to one and see what they say about excessive loads >on the land? ... I can only infer from your posting that you agree with me that large populations, per se, do not cause famine. Famine, as you have noted, is usually cause by mismanagement of natural resources. I would argue that most arable land could support a larger population if properly managed. Am I misinterpreting what you said? >I prefer to avoid personal insults but postings like the above >really make me wonder if some of the Propertarians on this net >are sheer idiots. >(please accept my apology for this insult but I am becoming >exasperated with repeated ignorant diatribes like the above!) > tim sevener whuxn!orb Apology accepted. What's a Propertarian? -- Tom Albrecht