mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) (09/22/86)
In article <1047@frog.UUCP>, tdh@frog.UUCP (T. Dave Hudson) writes: > > IS NOT FAIR NOR IS IT MORAL to make up things, nor take out of context > > quotations which do not reflect the author's meaning, nor to use your > > vague recollections as evidence, especially after others have pointed > > out using the actual text that you are simply wrong, just to argue that > > someone is a bad and Evil Person. Joe McCarthy did it, and he was > > wrong. > > Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a > Communist wasn't. Ahem. Mr. Hudson, I presume that you are prepared to document that outrageous comment with some facts (preferably *NOT* "facts" prepared by the John Birch Society)???? Perhaps this ought to be re-directed to net.followup? -- Disclaimer: Disclaimer? DISCLAIMER!? I don't need no stinking DISCLAIMER!!! tom keller "She's alive, ALIVE!" {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
lazarus@brahms.UUCP (09/22/86)
In article <1047@frog.UUCP> tdh@frog.UUCP (T. Dave Hudson) writes: > >Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a >Communist wasn't. > > David Hudson FALSE FALSE FALSE A COMPLETE LIE!!! Actually, no one Joe McCarthy accused ever *was* a Communist! He had nothing to do with the Hiss case (even allowing Hiss was guilty), nothing to do with the Rosenberg case, nothing to do with the Conlon case; he had nothing to do with any of the espionage convictions which were ever secured. People whom McCarthy did accuse - let's see. Owen Lattimore (never shown to be a communist), J. Robert Oppenheimer (ditto), China experts JS Sargent et al (not a one ever shown to be a Communist, at least one reinstated in the 60s), Dean Acheson (res ipsa loquitur), etc. Of the 89 Communists in the State Dept. which McCarthy claimed to know about (famous Wheeling W.VA. speech), he never named one outside the Congress, where (by law) he was immune from Libel and Slander actions. I can't believe you would make such a posting. I challenge you to supply a list of Communists fingered by McCarthy. For every one you dig up (no, don't bother with Khrushchev), I will find three non-communists he slandered. Have you no decency, sir. No human decency? andy lazarus
artm@phred.UUCP (Art Marriott) (09/25/86)
In article <1047@frog.UUCP> tdh@frog.UUCP (T. Dave Hudson) writes: >Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a >Communist wasn't. > ...Eisenhower? Art Marriott uw-beaver!tikal!phred!artm Winter's coming, so let's all flame away to keep warm.
crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) (09/26/86)
In article <1047@frog.UUCP> tdh@frog.UUCP (T. Dave Hudson) writes: >> IS NOT FAIR NOR IS IT MORAL to make up things, nor take out of context >> quotations which do not reflect the author's meaning, nor to use your >> vague recollections as evidence, especially after others have pointed >> out using the actual text that you are simply wrong, just to argue that >> someone is a bad and Evil Person. Joe McCarthy did it, and he was >> wrong. > >Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a >Communist wasn't. > > David Hudson I'd love to see a reference for *that*! Beyond that, there were a number of people accused of being a communist on the basis of membership in the CP 20 or 30 years before (remember that the CP was a more-or-less respectable political party in 1935 -- this was when the AFL sang the "Internationale" in meetings), which is less than reasonable. And there were certainly people who were implicated on the basis of such pearls of logic as "I have no evidence that so-and-so is not a member of the Communist Party." -- Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)
tdh@frog.UUCP (T. Dave Hudson) (09/28/86)
>> Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a >> Communist wasn't. > Actually, no one Joe McCarthy accused ever *was* a Communist! Extreme hyperbole at best. > he had nothing to do with any of > the espionage convictions which were ever secured. Non sequitur. > People whom McCarthy did accuse - let's see. Owen Lattimore > (never shown to be a communist), J. Robert Oppenheimer (ditto), > China experts JS Sargent et al (not a one ever shown to be > a Communist, at least one reinstated in the 60s), Dean > Acheson (res ipsa loquitur), etc. I can't comment at the moment except on Oppenheimer. He was fingered *not* by McCarthy but by the AEC and the FBI, back when McCarthy was still a Marine, for not reporting a contact with a Soviet agent. I was told by a man who claimed he had a chance to look at the Top Secret evidence on Oppenheimer that (trusting to his memory) - Oppenheimer's brother was a known card-carrier. - The evidence on Oppenheimer was conclusive. That is *not* the same thing as saying that Oppenheimer was or was not a traitor. > Of the 89 Communists in the > State Dept. which McCarthy claimed to know about (famous > Wheeling W.VA. speech), he never named one outside the Congress, > where (by law) he was immune from Libel and Slander actions. As I said, I don't consider McCarthy to have been worth defending. Like most successful politicians, the man was clearly a demagogue. And there are few people who doubt that his waving of lists was anything more than hand-waving. But all of that is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he accused anyone falsely of being a communist. > I challenge you > to supply a list of Communists fingered by McCarthy. For > every one you dig up (no, don't bother with Khrushchev), I > will find three non-communists he slandered. As long as he slandered them by accusing them falsely of being communist. We're starting out even, for the moment. Agreed? I'll have some more names in a few days. > Have you no decency, sir. No human decency? I'm happy to see that you think accusing someone of being a communist is a terrible thing to do. I might suggest that you be a little less extreme about it. :-) David Hudson
lazarus@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Andrew J &) (10/01/86)
In article <1056@frog.UUCP> tdh@frog.UUCP writes: >>> Not that McCarthy deserves defending, but no one he accused of being a >>> Communist wasn't. > >> Actually, no one Joe McCarthy accused ever *was* a Communist! > >Extreme hyperbole at best. > >> People whom McCarthy did accuse - let's see. Owen Lattimore >> (never shown to be a communist), J. Robert Oppenheimer (ditto), >> China experts JS Sargent et al (not a one ever shown to be >> a Communist, at least one reinstated in the 60s), Dean >> Acheson (res ipsa loquitur), etc. > >I can't comment at the moment except on Oppenheimer. He was fingered >*not* by McCarthy but by the AEC and the FBI, back when McCarthy was >still a Marine, for not reporting a contact with a Soviet agent. I >was told by a man who claimed he had a chance to look at the Top >Secret evidence on Oppenheimer that (trusting to his memory) > >- Oppenheimer's brother was a known card-carrier. This is so, but SO WHAT. Do we convict people on the basis of their brothers' beliefs. >- The evidence on Oppenheimer was conclusive. Really? Not according to "Security on Trial", by Philip Stern and Harold Greene. Mr. Greene was one of the government officials in charge of preparing the evidence against Oppenheimer. > >> Of the 89 Communists in the >> State Dept. which McCarthy claimed to know about (famous >> Wheeling W.VA. speech), he never named one outside the Congress, >> where (by law) he was immune from Libel and Slander actions. > >As I said, I don't consider McCarthy to have been worth defending. >Like most successful politicians, the man was clearly a demagogue. >And there are few people who doubt that his waving of lists was >anything more than hand-waving. But all of that is irrelevant to >the question of whether or not he accused anyone falsely of being >a communist. > >As long as he slandered them by accusing them falsely of being >communist. We're starting out even, for the moment. Agreed? I'll >have some more names in a few days. > I see I am not the only person on the net reading this defense of McCarthy with disbelief. So -- help me out -- cite references for some more inaccurate McCarthy accusations! And thanx to those who already have. (More examples next week -- I try to study sometimes.) andy
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) (10/03/86)
-- > >I can't comment at the moment except on Oppenheimer. He was fingered > >*not* by McCarthy but by the AEC and the FBI, back when McCarthy was > >still a Marine, for not reporting a contact with a Soviet agent. I > >was told by a man who claimed he had a chance to look at the Top > >Secret evidence on Oppenheimer that (trusting to his memory) > > > >- Oppenheimer's brother was a known card-carrier. > > This is so, but SO WHAT. > Do we convict people on the basis of their brothers' beliefs. > > >- The evidence on Oppenheimer was conclusive. > > Really? Not according to "Security on Trial", by Philip Stern and > Harold Greene. Mr. Greene was one of the government officials > in charge of preparing the evidence against Oppenheimer. So you want to know about Oppenheimer? Oppenheimer was a cousin of mine--well, by marriage (his wife Kitty was my cousin). And that marriage was his only possible link to CPUSA. Kitty's first husband was Joe Dallett, a commissar (the 1st, I think) of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade who died fighting the fascists in Spain. He was a Communist and proud of it. Even after he died and she remarried, Kitty hung out with his old circle of friends. So there were often commies in the house. And as mentioned, his brother Frank had joined the Party. This makes a man guilty? Of what? I'll tell you that too--he stood in the way (in terms of scientific stature) of fascist-to-this-day "Dr. Strangelove", Edward Teller. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 03 Oct 86 [12 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
lazarus@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Andrew J &) (10/11/86)
Sorry, have been busy, these week I have only 2 innocent Joe MacCarthy victims to report. The first is China expert John S. Service, fired in 1952 [?], eventually rehired in '72. No evidence of Communist affiliations, but he did say Chiang Kai-Shek was going to lose. Number 2 is from an Edward R. Murrow show -- not the famous one. Seems Tailgunner Joe found a "security risk" in the Army -- a young man whose father, an immigrant from Yugoslavia, continued to subscribe to a Serbo-Croat newspaper from Commie Yugoslavia. I mean, if we condemn Oppenheimer for his brother, we certainly should skewer this guy for his old pa. andy