Love-Hounds-request@EDDIE.MIT.EDU.UUCP (01/28/87)
Really-From: IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU IED's innocent (well, maybe not so innocent) little challenge of last week has precipitated a flood of irate responses, and (in what seems to be a tradition among L-Hs) nearly all of them revolve around a basic misinterpretation of the original "gauntlet". See if you can notice where each of the following goes awry: >Here's where we get down to the wire - how can any record be judged at >all objectively? There's absolutely no way to do it! You can say, well >this one has 15 bad edits and lots of hiss, so it stinks, but this one >has perfect sound, even though the material is shit, so it's great! >The point is, how can we give IED a list of "better than/as good >as" Kate Bush music? >-- I'm not implying that IED has a closed mind and can't appreciate good >music; the point is, how can we say that >what we happen to ENJOY LISTENING TO is as good as/better than Kate >Bush? It's a personal judgement. I happen to like Shriekback and >Frank Zappa, and think that there is at least one album by each of them >that scores in lyrics, music, production and thematic cohesion just as >high and sometimes higher than Kate. So what? Should I sit here all >day screaming at IED to get a life and buy a Shriekback album? It's >not very productive. Why don't we instead just say "here's a list of >albums that *I* consider as complex and innovative as Kate's music" > >----jon drukman >Subject: gauntlet >IED: Look, flash, you said it yourself but you still haven't caught >on. Eno's lyrics "were devised almost exclusively for their >phonetic/rhythmic qualities, and ... he never put any serious effort >into them..." AND they are still more interesting than Kate's. > >-- sr (apparently Stephen R.) > >"Bull-pucky!" says Doug. > >-- Doug > >Subject: Eno is (was?) God >Yow! This is ridiculous. Eno has also said his methods of >art include "found" methods and results; one cannot infer that >he or others should regard his lyrics or music as less worthwhile >simply because he put "less serious effort into them". > ><leave factual mode, enter opinion mode> > >The famous four albums, and particularly the later two ("Before and >After Science", "Taking Tiger Mountain by Strategy") are masterpieces >of fortuity and subtlety. They are at least on the same level as Kate's >masterpiece, "The Dreaming". And across the breadth of their work (and >Eno's is far broader than Kate's) the quality of Eno is consistently better, >more crafted and interesting. > >-- Rob Stanzel > >Subject: Re: KaTastrophic state of music >>For the sake of argument (and out of a profound sense >>of desperation), IED challenges anyone reading this to name ONE record >>made since the early Seventies that attains a level of thematic and >>musical complexity, multi-level meaning and sophisticated cohesion of >>music and production comparable to that achieved by Kate Bush since 1982. >>IT CANNOT BE DONE! SUCH MUSIC DOES NOT EXIST! > > Key operative word: "comparable". I'm not sure I can say which is better >(what is "better" anyway??). > > Peter Gabriel's 3rd and 4th albums. > Pink Floyd's "The Wall" > >-- Dan Vanevic > >With all the names and album titles that have been offered in >response to the challenge, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Jane >Siberry, whose two albums are lyrically and musically REALLY >fascinating, possibly on a par (IED forgive me!) with Kate. > >-- apparently from Stephen A. Bloch Now, for those who still don't see the pattern, each of the above postings assumes that IED was challenging L-Hs to name LPs that were as GOOD as or BETTER than The Dreaming and Hounds of Love. In fact, however, IED was simply challenging you to name LPs that possessed the same degree of SUBTLETY, SOPHISTICATION, COMPLEXITY, REFINEMENT, not only in one or two areas, but in terms of LYRICS, THEME, MUSICAL STRUCTURE and SOUND. Obviously the former challenge (which IED did NOT make) could be easily dismissed as nothing but a matter of personal preference, an essentially subjective matter. But just as obviously, the latter challenge (which IED DID make) can, theoretically, be discussed at great length, and with the promise of real insight on the part of all parties, since such matters as intricacy of melodic structure, layers of sonic information, the multivalence of symbols in lyrics, etc. can all be compared and gauged with a high degree of objectivity, and WITHOUT raising the boring and insoluble question of whether such intricacy is GOOD or BAD, NECESSARY or UNNECESSARY, VALUABLE or WORTHLESS, etc. Of all the postings relevant to this issue to date, only Wiley Sanders's seems to appreciate this distinction (note his final comment): >From: Wiley Sanders >> IED challenges anyone reading this to name ONE record >>... that attains a level of thematic and >> musical complexity, multi-level meaning and sophisticated cohesion of >> music and production comparable to that achieved by Kate Bush since 1982. >> IT CANNOT BE DONE! SUCH MUSIC DOES NOT EXIST! > >Please ignore previous message! I hadn't read the question! >The previous message extolled the virtues of "Never Mind the Bollocks": >Thematic and Musical (mucus-ile?) Complexity - NONE >Multi-Level Meaning - NONE! >Sophisticated Cohesion of Music and Production - You've got to be Kidding! >Still - NMTB is still in my top five (along with KB, of course). > >-- ws Mr. Sanders's perfectly acceptable point is well made: he feels that there are OTHER qualities in NMTB which entitle it to a high place in the list of rock or rock-related albums made since the early 1970s. IED even happens heartily to agree with him about the value of this album. The most excellent point of Mr. Sanders's posting is that he is WILLING to accept the virtues of his favourite music, without attributing to it virtues which it does NOT have, and which, of course, it doesn't NEED to have IN ORDER TO BE GOOD. Dan Vanevic seems to think that the term "comparable", as used in IED's challenge, introduces a comparison of overall quality or value into the issue. In fact, of course, it does nothing of the sort, but simply refers to the comparison of relative COMPLEXITY between musics, irrespective of those musics' overall quality. Now, is IED going to have to explain all this YET AGAIN before he gets a relevant reply? >Let's get something perfectly clear. >>Apparently from: Douglas Traynor >>And don't forget the non-mainstream stuff that also just happens to be >>equally complex as this Miss Bush. Two immediate examples are Pere Ubu >>and Matching Mole. > >>...though IED only bothers posting it out of an increasingly >>forlorn hope that deadbeats who make remarks like Robert Robinson's and >>Douglas Traynor's are not the only people reading this list. >This is not me, the tip-offs are quite clear. I would never write a >sentence with "Pere Ubu" in it or refer to Bush-baby as "Miss Bush." > >-- Douglas Traynor Well, Doug, IED did say "apparently from". Sorry, he just couldn't decipher the computerese at the front of the above message, which was unsigned. Just replace your name above with whichever deadbeat it really was! There will be no retraction of the substance of the above message, however. >I have read in this newsgroup that Kate Bush cds are difficult to find >and very expensive when one does find them. Tower Records said they >sell them for about $20 when they have them. Well, for those of you >in the Washington D.C. area or with friends here, Kemp Mill Records, >a large chain, sells Kate Bush cds for the same price as the majority >of their other cds, i.e. $13.99 . On Fridays and Saturdays they sell >all cds for $1.00 off. On Saturday January 24, the Kemp Mill store >in Falls Church, VA had about two dozen copies of "The Whole Story" >for $12.99 . > >I won't comment on the quality of the performance, but the quality of >the sound on this cd is below par. It is muddy, flat, and dull. It >appears that the person who supervised the remixing and digitization >didn't care very much. Perhaps the lp is better. > >-- Jay J. Pulli >I have heard rumors from other people that the domestic CD of *The >Whole Story* sounds shitty. I cannot confirm this because I do not >have it. I own the British import CD, which to me sounds fine -- a >little bit hissy, but otherwise okay. Nancy Everson tells me that >she has seen at Newbury Comics a domestic version of *The Kick >Inside* on CD, complete with the Tammy Whynette cover. Maybe it >beginning to look like we will eventually someday see *The Dreaming* >on CD! > >-- Doug It's true, until now L-Hs postings have decried the high prices of Kate Bush CDs, because until now all Kate Bush CDs were imported, and as a result prices were quite variable and always inflated. This is definitely not the case now, however! As others more observant than IED have already noted in L-Hs, The Whole Story is definitely out now as a DOMESTIC EMI-America CD, and it sells for between $12.99 and $15.99, depending on the cupidity of local retailers and the power of the marketplace. Though IED, too, has not yet heard the AMERICAN CD of The Whole Story, he is ready to believe that it is not exceptional, as CDs go (though it can hardly be inferior to its vinyl counterparts). The ENGLISH CD of same, as Doug has attested, is, however, a very successful mix. The assumption to be made is the usual one, namely that the Americans make shoddy product. This is especially unfortunate, since the U.S. CD of "The Whole Story" presumably is one of the first to come out of EMI-America's new Jacksonville plant, and this is the same plant that will be giving us the U.S. CDs of the Beatles albums as well as all future U.S. versions of Kate's albums. Furthermore, the productivity of this plant will mean that alternative imported CD releases of the same albums will be very hard, if not impossible, to come by. (BASTARDS!) >Subject: "Thanks, Andy." >Much thanks to Andy Marvick for posting the Swales interview. That has got to >be the most informative, personal KT interview this Love Hound has ever read. >I can hardly wait to read the rest. This is so sweet that IED feels like a heel for gainsaying Mark's favourite ELP music. Consider his remarks about the Emerson concerto formally withdrawn and apologized for. Bill Hsu, you stand alone! >Kate Bush first appeared in US TV in an episode of Saturday Night Live in >which she sang "The Man With The Child In His Eyes" and "Them Heavy People" >(which I thought was named "Rolling the Ball" for a long time). The show >was hosted by Monty Python's Eric Idle, who brought Kate as a special guest. > >-- Dan Vanevic Your reminiscence (not re-printed) is nice to read, Dan, but the trivia questions themselves, which you posted ages ago, were all answered the very same day by Doug Alan, so you're a little late. >With all the names and album titles that have been offered in >response to the challenge, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Jane >Siberry, whose two albums are lyrically and musically REALLY >fascinating, possibly on a par (IED forgive me!) with Kate. > >-- apparently from Stephen A. Bloch At the risk of alienating still more L-Hs, IED disagrees. There are a few isolated moments, mostly from her first (independent) release and the second LP, which are genuinely subtle and enigmatic. Her last LP, however, is a big disappointment, practically MOR in its song structure, production and associations with various tired genres. It's true she's created some very intricate works, but their isolation within the context of her albums as a whole makes their intricacy seem more fortuitous, less thorough, less deliberate, less pervasive, and altogether less far-reaching than that found in The Dreaming or (especially) in The Ninth Wave. -- Andrew Marvick