Love-Hounds-request@EDDIE.MIT.EDU.UUCP (01/31/87)
Really-From: IED0DXM@UCLAMVS
Here, as advertised, is the fifth and CONCLUDING part of
the Peter Swales interview, The Second True and Only Gospel.
Happy reading!
Swales: There seems to be so much water-imagery on this album.
Kate: Yes, well I think as soon as I decided to go for the concept,
I sort of said, "Oh, let's be brave and go for it," then the
energies, the synchronicities, or whatever you want to call them,
started coming into play and nearly everyone I was working with was
a water-sign! But I think, again, a lot of people have commented
already on how the album seems to them very elemental -- you know,
full with the elements wind and rain. And I can't help but put quite
lot of that down to the fact that I moved out into the country. Instead
of being boxed in by big houses, the VISUAL stimulus coming in was
that of fields and trees and seeing the elements doing their stuff.
Swales: Certain of the new songs, like "And Dream of Sheep" and
"Hello Earth", strike me rather like Hollywood show-tunes: they're
rather cinematic.
Kate: I think in a way they're, umm, probably the most VISUAL songs
I've written in that, when I was writing them, I had in mind what
potentially might be done with them, visually, which isn't normally
the sort of way you go about writing a song. So it'll be interesting
if we can ever actually turn it into a film, which is what I'd like
to do, and to see if it takes to it well. <This plan, to make a film
of The Ninth Wave, was later abandoned. --ied>
Swales: Do you think in your writing you've gradually departed further
and further, structurally speaking, from the standard pop-song formula?
Kate: I don't know! I suppose I have in some ways. But particularly
rhythmically perhaps subconsciously I've moved more TOWARDS that. I
mean the constant rhythm with fewer breaks is more in evidence on the
new album: though the music is changing, the rhythm keeps on going,
and in a way I think that actually makes it a little more commercial.
But I think trying to tell the story musically is the biggest
concern for me now, rather than...I mean, obviously the structure
of the song is always important, but in a way the story tends to
dictate that a little bit.
Swales: I suppose the songs on Side One are more TO FORMULA: verse,
verse, chorus, etc.
Kate: Yes, absolutely.
Swales: But it's not just the case that Side One was just put
together out of a lot of odds and sods?
Kate: No, no, not at all!
Del Palmer: I would say that, in fact, probably over the course
of time there's been more time and effort spent on some the tracks
on Side One.
Kate: Recording, yes, but, compositionally, more on the second side,
The Ninth Wave. The songs on Side One were WRITTEN quite quickly.
Swales: It seems to me that perhaps Hounds of Love doesn't
cohere so organically in terms of texture and emotion as did
The Dreaming and that, rather than being such a masterpiece, it's
a collection of several smaller masterpieces like "Hello Earth",
"Jig of Life", and things like that.
Kate: Well, I think the problem with Side Two, The Ninth Wave,
is that it is an overall concept, and ideally I would have liked
two sides of an album to develop it. But I wouldn't like to feel
the album was just lots of little cameos that have been put together
but rather that the album does flow. It's true, the first side is very
much made up of separate songs. But it's so interesting
what you say, because so many people
have just the opposite reaction in that they found The Dreaming
terribly difficult, I just don't think they could understand it. That's
fascinating, extraordinary!
Swales: Was that album not so successful in Britain, then, as the earlier
ones?
Kate: Well, I think it was a PHYSICAL success. It got to number three
in the album charts in England, it went straight in at number three
and, for me, a top three album is a success. But everyone felt it was
uncommercial and so DIFFERENT: "Oh, what a lot of time you've spent
in the studio, Kate;" and there were no hit singles. And I think,
because of that, everyone FELT that it wasn't successful.
Swales: But in America, allowing of course that EMI didn't see fit
to release your second and third albums until last year, it got a
lot more attention and acclaim than anything you'd ever done.
Kate: Yes, absolutely, the general reaction from the States was
incredible. Several of the reviews, for instance. I've just never
read reviews like them, they were just fantastic! The media in America
reacted so differently from the media in Britain, it was just
extraordinary. And it seems American reviewers take their writing
more seriously as a creative form, more so than in this country. And
some of those reviewers had really HEARD the music. I felt there was
such a great sense of positivity and acceptance towards what I was
doing on that last album, much more so from America than from anywhere
else. Whereas all the earlier albums, which I'd have said were far
more easily listenable and commercial, had no response from that country.
And that seemed to me completely contradictory to what I'd been told
about the American market. You know, it's said that Americans are
terribly conservative in their tastes and that they like things which
fit easily on the radio. Yet, in fact, the response to the last album,
like from the reviewers and that, has been incredible. They really
did like it...
Paddy: Yeah, they really went into Kate's music. They take music
SERIOUSLY.
Kate: They were ready to actually LISTEN to it, not just to sit there
and only hear it superficially.
Swales: Well, you must have realized by now there's a huge Kate Bush
cult throughout the whole of America. But I find it a little sad to
think how so many allusions in your lyrics are bout to get lost on
American ears, things like the ravens in the Tower of London, the
bit about the Sweeney, stuff like that which Americans won't understand
the meaning of.
Kate: Yeah, all kinds of things, very English things, that's very true.
But I think there are as many American colloquialisms and allusions in
the music coming from the States, words and ideas that we can only
pick up on through the American T.V. programs we get. Steely Dan are
a good example of something very American.
Swales: But perhaps, in having talked about what I consider to be
the peculiarly British nature of your music, we've been touching on
the reason why, despite the massive cult following, America -- and
especially the media -- has been so slow in catching on to Kate Bush,
because you do, I suppose, sound rather ALIEN to their ears. <Kate
finds this notion rather funny; she wiggles her forefingers above
her head, exposing the fact that, in truth, she is an extraterrestrial
creature equipped with antennae.>
Kate: Do you think it's maybe all a bit complex for them?
Swales: Well, complex, yes. But I mean UNFAMILIAR. Your songs just
aren't so easily sing-able, they're not very easily predictable,
in the manner of most indigenous American music. I mean, once you've
heard one verse and a chorus of an American song you've as good as
heard the whole thing. And I think that's what so surprises me about
the comparative success of The Dreaming in the States, as so much
American pop music is incredibly trite, so much of it has to do with
stupefaction rather than revelation. But, you know, in one or two of
the American reviews of The Dreaming, your music has been described
as "schizophrenic", and to tell you the truth, I feel I can well
understand why people have said that. You know I'm a historian
concerned with Freud and psychoanalysis. And it seems to me that, in
a manner of speaking, your music represents a virtual compendium of
psychopathology; I mean to say, it is alternatively hysterical,
melancholic, psychotic, paranoid, obsessional, and so on. And yet,
in your case, such traits obviously proceed out of strength, not
out of weakness, they represent roles which you're assuming, or
states which you're simulating, for the sake of a given song.
Kate: Yes! Well, I think that's fabulous that you should say so.
You see, while I'm maybe not scientifically interested like you,
I am absolutely fascinated by the states that people throw and put on.
And, you know, I think that that is the most fascinating thing there
is to write about really, the way that people just distort things
and the things they think and the things they do. And it's really
fun for me if I can find an area of the personality that is slightly
exaggerated or distorted and, if I feel I can identify with it enough,
then try to cast a person as perfectly as I can in terms of that
particular character trait, especially if I don't really show those
kinds of things myself. Take anger for instance: it's really fun to
write from the point of view of someone who's really ANGRY, like
in "Get Out of My House" on the last album. Because I very rarely
show anger, although obviously I do sometimes feel it. And it was the
same sort of thing with "Waking the Witch" on the new album. What
fascinated me in doing that song was the idea of a witch-hunter hiding
behind the priesthood, as a guise, and coming to get this woman who
isn't a witch, but he wants to MAKE her so. The girl closes her eyes
to get away from it and goes to a church where it's safe and secure.
You know, churches are supposed to be places of sanctuary and their
doors are never shut, even perhaps for people being chased by the
Devil; but the priest turns out to be the witch-hunter. I didn't
really have any heavy experiences like those that the song is about.
It's based very much on other people's imagery of Roman Catholicism
which I've found fascinating -- you know, the kind of oppression,
even madness, it can create, I suppose, in some people. And it's
much more that, really, than any personal experience of my own. My
school was Roman Catholic, so there was a big emphasis on religion,
but it wasn't incredibly strict, and I didn't really go to church
an awful lot, so I don't think the experience of religion was as heavy
for me as for a lot of people...
Swales: So you're able to live those things out vacariously through
your songs?
Kate: Yes, and it can be really FUN.
Swales: But then, does this ever backfire on you? Do the forces which you
unleash or the identities which you assume ever start gaining their own
strength and begin taking you over?
Kate: No, I don't think they ever take me over. While I don't believe
there is very much of me personally in these characters, obviously there
must be a bit, or I simply would not be able to come up with them. But
I think hopefully I'll recognize that most of them would not be
beneficial to me; and, as long as I can recognize that, then I don't
think they'll take me over. But, you know, I'm by no means a perfect
person...
Swales: But you do allow them to take you over, to BECOME YOU, for as
long as you're actually writing or recording a song?
Kate: I can feel very affected by them, but I don't think they actually
take me over. I think I was very much affected by "Breathing"; and, when
I was making the last album, I was very affected by "Houdini". Because
it was REALLY SAD trying to be Houdini's lady, because he had died and
obviously he must have been amazingly special as a person, someone
trying to escape not only throughout his life, but also in death.
Swales: And were there any such role-playings on the new album?
Kate: Um, yes. I think "Cloudbusting" was quite like that. It must have
been nearly ten years ago, when I used to go up to the Dance Center in
London, that I went into Watkins' occult bookshop for a look, and there
was this book and it said, A Book of Dreams by Peter Reich. I'd never
heard of his father, Wilhelm Reich, but I just thought it was going
"Hello, Hello," so I just picked up the book and read it and couldn't
believe that I'd just FOUND this book on the shelf. I mean it was so
inspirational, very magical, with that energy there. So when I wrote
and recorded the song, although it was about nine years later, I
was nevertheless psyched up by the book, the image of the boy's father
being taken away and locked up by the government just for building
a machine to try to make rain. It was such a beautiful book!
Swales: Much of your music is very literate. Is reading a passion of
yours? I'm curious, in fact, whether you're in tune with authors like
Doris Lessing or Iris Murdoch; sometimes I describe Kate Bush to
people as being a sort of Doris Lessing of rock.
Kate: I'm sorry, Doris who? I'm sorry, but I don't know the author...
But reading was once a very big passion. When I was about eight or nine,
for about three years I got through dozens and dozens of books and was
very much into reading, mostly fiction. But as soon as I began writing
poems at school -- basically, as soon as I started getting into writing
songs -- everything else seemed to go out the window. I'd sit down and
read a book, and think how I could be writing a song rather than reading.
It's only really in the last few years, when I get the time to read a
book, that I realize how incredible it is. During journeys by car, I've
got into reading again. It's very good, I really, really enjoy it.
There's nothing like reading a good book. The sense of involvement --
and, you know, you actually feel you're one of the people in the story.
That sense of involvement, it's incredible, it's GOOD. But I'm such a
slow reader and, unless I'm on holiday, which is a very rare thing,
I always feel that there's something better, more productive, that I
could be doing. So I tend not to read, as I always feel guilty, and
I think I should be doing other things.
Del Palmer: I think that's just an excuse, I think you should make time
to read.
Swales: And especially if songs like "Cloudbusting" come out of it.
Kate: Yes, but I read that so long ago and it's just been waiting to
come out for nine or ten years. The thing is, I had to wait till I
was at the right point to write that song in such a way that I could
do it proper justice.
Swales: If one knows a little about Houdini, one knows that, before
he died, he promised he would send back from beyond the grave some
signal of his continuing existence if it proved supernaturally possible
to do so. And so you have beautifully incorporated that moment in your
song when you have him finally speak to his lady from the spirity-world.
I take it I've got the right interpretation, yes?
Kate: Absolutely, yes...
Swales: Well, are people clued in enough to pick up on all these sort
of subtleties and allusions in your songs, generally, and to know what
they mean? When you talk with people, by and large do they show a good
understanding of the concepts?
Kate: You know, I think that the majority of the people really do. Yes,
I really think they do. Because, if they bother to listen, then after
about three or four times they start putting the words or the ideas
together. And I mean the one that really amazed me, we did a video
of "Breathing" and the idea was being in this huge inflatable; and I was
at this conference somewhere and there were all these women in their
forties and fifties, real Monty Python sort of women, and they all
came up and said <Kate affects a strong London accent, which requires
merely an exaggeration of her normal accent>: "Oh we LOVED your video!"
And then one of them says: "But listen, you must tell me, I had this,
you know, this argument with my daughter; you WERE meant to be in a
womb, weren't you? I mean, THAT is what it was meant to be, wasn't it?
A WOMB. " And I said YEAH!
Swales: You mean she got it, it was true?
Kate: Yeah, she got it! And she said: "There you are, didn't I tell
you it was a womb." And I thought yeah, that's fantastic! I mean,
I wouldn't have even expected her to sit and watch it...
Swales: But Kate, I'd like to pick an argument with you. I must confess,
I find it difficult to WATCH your performances, I think for a few
reasons. It seems to me so much of your music flows right out from
essence, so to speak, whereas all the acting, all the theatrics, by
their very nature they're something artificial and contrived. Also,
because there's often a more or less flagrant sexual element to your
performance, the viewer is automatically thrust into the position of
being a voyeur, and being a voyeur is not necessarily everyone's cup
of tea. You know what I mean?
Kate: Wow, yeah, that's h-e-a-v-y. But I have only ever consciously
projected the sexual element in a couple of characters, and if that's
present for you in every performance, well, that is worrying for me,
as it's not intentional and I'm not aware of it.
Swales: Well, be that as it may, I know just how seriously you've
taken the art of performance, how you studied under Lindsay Kemp
and all that. And I'm also aware how much effort and skill it takes;
to act like that is not something just anybody could get up and do.
Now I'm not sure to what extent my own perception is idiosyncratic,
I mean to say, I do know people who LOVE your performances. But,
myself, I wonder-- and here's where I'm trying to pick the argument --
if all these theatrics might not detract from your potential for being
taken seriously as a musician, especially in America.
Kate: It's a big problem. Because I don't think I've been completely
happy with any visual performance that I've done except for
"Army Dreamers" and perhaps "Running Up That Hill". But they were
videos which took a lot of time and work and control. Except for one
I did recently of "Running Up That Hill" for a British TV show, where
I look a bit like Richard III, there are no TV performances I've done
where I think I've ever even got close to pulling it off. So, apart
from those few things, but also the videos of "Wuthering Heights" and
bits of "Breathing", I don't think I've accomplished what I really
wanted visually. Usually the problems are lack of time or money.
We always have a lot of challenging ideas but then end up compromising
somewhere or other in order to meet deadlines or budgets. But
occasionally things DO come together well. If anything, though,
I think my performances help audiences understand the music better,
especially the lyrical aspect, and the tour of Europe definitely
caused a change in attitude both among the public and the media.
Many people began to take me seriously as a musician for the first time.
The audiences could see me there singing and dancing, leading the
band and in control of the whole act. And that's quite different from
the kind of controlled, far-away image that one gets through the media...
Swales: But in these performances, Kate -- and really they are what I
wanted to talk about, not your videos -- there are only a couple of
songs which you yourself perform ON THE PIANO, usually one or two of
the more gentle and intimate ones like "The Man with the Child in
His Eyes". Yet someone like me, at any rate, would like to see you
as a performer, as a serious musician, singing at the piano and leading
the band, which I know you could do very well if you wanted to. I
told you earlier how the first time I saw Kate Bush was early on,
around 1978, when you did two or three numbers in that manner on a
TV show, and it was then that I recognized in an instant, that this
young kid was an exceptional artist who had to be taken very seriously,
I mean MUSICALLY. Am I right in thinking that one of the reasons you've
never toured in the States is because you suppose you need this big
show with all the people involved and all the expensive props?
Do you not feel -- and I suppose this is really what my argument
comes down to -- that you could come to America just with your
band and play more or less straightforwardly?
Kate: No, no, I would feel that that was such a cop-out. I don't
think I'd be able to feel that I had any effort or sense of challenge
left in me. I don't really feel that happy doing something, in a way,
unless I've really pushed myself to the limit. And, you know, it's like
when we do videos and things, I don't really feel right unless we're
all filthy and exhausted by the end of the day. Otherwise it doesn't
feel like you've put enough effort into it. When you hear an album
you listen to the music; but when you go and see a show, you're going
there to SEE that person or the band come alive, and hopefully give
you everything that they've got, so that you can really have a good
evening and enjoy the music within the concept of a SHOW. And I think,
if I was just going to stand up there, then, you know, what
are the audience getting apart from seeing me just standing there
that they can't get on an album? On the albums, they get much better
arrangements, much better vocals which are in tune, all that sort of
thing...
Swales: Except that there are of course artists who can give a
straightforward performance yet who do it in such a way that they
invest it with something quite special in terms of musical
spontaneity and so on...
Kate: You see, I don't think I WANT to be up there on the stage
being ME. I don't think I'm that interesting for people to see.
I think what I want to do is to be up there actually being the person
that is there in the song. I think that is much more interesting for
people and it is much more of a challenge for me. If I can be the
character in the song, then suddenly there's all this strength and
energy in me which perhaps I wouldn't normally have, whereas if it
was just me, I don't think I could walk on the stage with confidence.
It's very hard for me to be ME on a stage, I just stand there and
twiddle my fingers.
Swales: But Kate, it seems to me that all those in the States who've
taken Kate Bush so deeply to heart and who are feeling deprived not
to have had a chance to see her perform, what they love perhaps more
than anything is precisely that so much of your music is so deeply
personal. The personae you assume are fun, but it is the real Kate
Bush whom your fans love more than anyone else. Could you not come to the
States to perform and simply be yourself?
Kate: Well, that is great if you think people would like that, but
I cannot help but feel it is very important to give people something
visually special. That was what made me feel there was something
special when I saw Lindsay Kemp all those years ago. He opened up a
whole new world for me that I had not really thought about before,
the fact that he was doing something so incredible without even
saying anything! It really affected me emotionally, like when I was
younger and used to listen to records and the way they affected me
was incredible and I used to think, if I could ever do that one day
to other people through music, that would be great. I think in a way
Lindsay had a similar influence on me; what he was doing was so exciting
and powerful, I thought to myself, if you could possibly create music
AND have it accompanied by such strong visuals, then it would just have
to be good; and really interesting. And I don't think, by any means,
that the tour which we did some years ago was perfect, there were a lot
of things that were experimental, and we didn't know if they were
going to work, but I think we did explore new territory, visually
speaking, and the reaction was so positive -- I mean, I think that
probably opened up more people to listening to my stuff than the
records themselves ever did. Partly, I think, because people didn't
expect me to be quite like that and they all enjoyed it. And I see
that as a very positive, rather than a negative, thing. Had they
not enjoyed it, then that would be a different thing and perhaps
I would not feel so inclined to want to do it again. But I have
had an extraordinary amount of encouragement from people not just on
the musical side but also on the visual side, maybe even more so!
And I do feel that, when eventually I get the time and money to do
another show, I hope we will continue working along those lines of
combining music with dance and with theatre and it would be even
better and much more interesting than the last time. I think that is
a very untouched area in rock music, and it has great potential.
Del Palmer: Yeah, anyone can set up their gear and sit down at a piano
and sing for an hour. But not everybody can put on a whole integrated
show. And as soon as we got our little band together years ago, right
from the word go it was theatrics and show. We were only playing little
pubs on tiny little stages like at "The Rose of Lee", but we had a
whole light show, we used dry ice, and all that. What you are saying
is that Kate's fans in America would love it even if she just came over
and set up and played. But think how much more they would love it if
she was there with a whole show.
Swales: Well, are there any plans yet for a return to the stage?
Kate: No, I have got some projects that I want to try and get done
before I can get on to a live project. There is promotion to be done
on the album, which I hope to get done as quickly as possible. I have
got a couple of videos to do for the singles, which are demanding, so I
am trying to put as much work into them as possible, and then get into
the visual thing on The Ninth Wave. And then I can maybe think about
live work and the next album.
Swales: To go back on stage, would you actually have to get together
some Irish musicians -- perhaps even Planxty themselves! -- to execute
things like "Night of the Swallow" and "Jig of Life"?
Kate: Oh, Planxty, wouldn't that be great! That would be fabulous.
It would be incredibly difficult to do songs like that without Irish
musicians. But I don't know, it would all depend on boring things
like money; it would be terribly expensive to take a band like that on
tour with you. "Jig of Life" would be very very different without a
ceilidh band, though it could be interesting. But I am hoping the film
project that I would like to do would get around that, as originally
The Ninth Wave was written very much as a story, and ideally I would
like to make a film of that, and then that whole side of the album
with "Jig of Life" would be very much covered, I feel. And so maybe
for a show I would be doing the other new numbers and a selection
of numbers off the third and fourth albums, because those would be
more suited to live performance.
Swales: But are you primed to follow up the North American end of
things if things take off there?
Kate: Yes, I mean, I'll go over there. Obviously if things were
happening out there, then I would come out there.
Swales: Well, I really think things could change for you very
profoundly in the autumn <of 1985>.
Kate: THEY ARE GOING TO! I think everything is going to be different
by October or so, yes. Things are really starting to happen and change,
already, things are very positive in the record company with this
album. But if I can avoid it, I do not want to get caught up in a long
drawn-out promotion thing that would keep me away from the creative
side of things. Because the longer I work on promotion, then in a way the
harder it is for me to get back to doing what I really like doing --
recording. We do work in a very isolated way, you know, most of the
time it is just three of us in the control-room: the engineer, Del,
and myself, say. And then suddenly to go out into the world to do
promotion is quite a culture-shock. There are really a lot of people
out there, and to walk into a room with perhaps a few hundred people
in it and they are all looking at you, it is a very different world!
And it is all a bit unreal, it tends to get a bit scary sometimes.
Swales: Well, then, will you promise us that you won't keep us waiting
another three years for the next album?
Kate: I would never like to break a promise. But I would like to say
that the next one should be a lot quicker.
-- END OF THE SECOND TRUE AND ONLY GOSPEL --
-- Andrew Marvick