Love-Hounds-request@EDDIE.MIT.EDU.UUCP (02/17/87)
Really-From: Greg Earle <smeagol!earle@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> >Actually, IED might even be willing to agree that Skylarking >is one of the best LPs "of the year." The obvious point to make >is that this isn't saying much, since there were NO very good LPs made >in 1986. Think of the kind of mark in history an LP like Sgt. Pepper's >made; surely you are capable of seeing that 1986 produced no such record. Jesus Christ, Andrew, if you want to make an idiot of yourself in this forum, that's your damn business; but one can only countenance remarks like this for so long. Shit, I even wasted your supposed `Challenge' in private mail; maybe I should have posted it instead. First of all, everyone has their own idea of what a `very good LP' is; for you to say `there were NO very good LPs made in 1986' not only shows your ignorance of subjective subjects but also your tunnelvisioned view of modern music (i.e., music is divided into Kate Bush and All Other Heathen Scum). A lot of other more reasonable people have pointed out the farce in your reasoning, but you just won't face it. You also ignore the fact that for some people the `kind of mark in history an album makes' is *personal*; I couldn't give two shits about how many copies `Sgt. Pepper' sold, or how many Hippie rock writers of the time hailed it as the messiah of rock music, the LP that `makes people think of Rock in serious terms', or whathaveyou, as far as *I'm* concerned (other opinions solicited - this is a *personal* thing, remember) `Revolver' pisses all over `Sgt. Pepper' and the rest of their LP's (it's the only one I can stand, sorry) and that's all that matters to *me*. `Revolver' made MORE of a `mark in history' for *me* and that is once again a subjective thing for most people. In the same vein - about `style', Paul Weller once wrote: "I don't care how many people try to tell me how great Picasso is. Well I think he was shite and a French Small Faces EP cover pisses all over any of his paintings." Style, like musical taste, is a personal matter and you can't sit there and tell everyone how wrong they are because they disagree with your definitions and criteria for comparing record albums. Sheesh. >Why do you have to be reminded AGAIN that IED's challenge was to name an LP >more sophisticated than "anything Kate has produced SINCE 1982"? So far, >nobody has been able to do that. Hmm, guess you ignore your mail, I named at LEAST 5 right off the top of my head, if I wanted to really waste my time I'd make a list when I'm at home ... Two of them were even released in 1986!! >>I began to see convergence in this paragraph: sure, we can describe and >>analyze. But then you blow it in the last sentence -- one can't usefully >>compare aesthetics. In the quote, your first phrase contradicts your last. >This is just simply not true. It is you who are still struggling -- >and with a very rudimentary distinction, IED might add. What IED >said in the last sentence was that it was quite possible to >make COMPARATIVE analyses between, say, two different pieces of >music, providing one is comparing definite, quantifiable >and recordable elements of the music. This is an obvious fact. >Here's a hypothetical example (more than you've yet given): |>oug >and IED are listening to Kate Bush's "Breathing" from >the Never for Ever LP. |>oug says, "I love this studio-produced version, >but I find it less moving than the version Kate performed live at the >British Comic Relief shows." IED AGREES with Doug; but adds that THERE >IS NO QUESTION that in terms of harmony, structural design and >number of hidden messages the studio version is FAR MORE COMPLEX, >and even FAR MORE SUCCESSFUL." Hey, that's pretty good. People shred your claim to be able to compare apples and oranges, and you come back with a `proof' that is comparing the SAME piece of music, performed by the SAME composer, with only a difference in the mode of presentation used - this is like comparing two Granny Smith apples!!! Comparing these two things is the ultimate Trivial Case in musical comparisons, hardly a `proof' of your theory! `Atomizer', `The Unacceptable Face Of Freedom', `Paint Your Wagon', etc. all came out in 1986, and all of these made more of mark on *my* history than a thousand `Sgt. Peppers' ... I leave it to the other contributors to add other counterexamples, I'm sick and tired of this BS ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Other News: The Assembled Weenies At NRL will be pleased to know that the latest Thrasher (best music magazine in America?) has features on the Buttholes, Adolescents (tho', still no one can get Rikk Agnew to talk), and the Pushead column is all about Japanese Hardcore!!! Yow, go to town, dudes! Skate Rad! Meanwhile, the current March "Freestylin'" has a picture of a skate on the cover which is plastered with Factory stickers ... Rumors linking the board's owner, "Freestylin'"'s Editor Andy Jenkins, with Andy Jenkins, bass player for Factory, have yet to be denied ... Bob Krajewski [lmi-angel!rpk] mmentioned WAY back about the `new' Wire EP, `Snakedrill'. Well, L.A. record stores are getting lamer by the day and it took me a month and a half to find it, in Encinitas of all places (down San Diego way). All I can add is that if you are a Wire fan at all this is a *must* purchase. Every other time in history a band has reformed it's invariably been for the Wrong Reasons or it Just Doesn't Work again. Usually releases from these new editions are cause for running to the bomb shelter. Immense credit is due to these guys for blasting that theory; even on my first listen the thing that struck me was It's Them, It's Really THEM, like as in They'd-Never-Left all this time It's Them. The whole Wire essence is right there, right from the we-refuse-to-sound-like-anything-else to the interplay between the instruments to That Voice. Wow. It's just fucking amazing that they could pull this off, after 6 years apart. If you listen to the individual records (He Said, Gilbert & Lewis, Colin Newman's `Commercial Suicide' etc.) which are decidedly non-Wire-esque, it's even more surprising. Slot in between Chairs Missing and 154 and no one will blink an eyelash ... Quotations from Chairman Albini: `Hey, how do you know when your roommate is a homosexual?' (Crowd) `How?' `When his dick tastes like SHIT' [This from the Big Black video Bill Hsu mentioned - jeez, imagine seeing Big Black in some little shithole in Chicago with hardly anyone there, and getting a batch of as-yet-unreleased `Atomizer' buried in your cranium. Yow. Also, they do a rave-up cover of the song `Rema Rema', by the ENGLISH band of the same name (Rema Rema, who had Marco Pironi, later of much food and Adam and the Ants, on guitar; also a future Wolfgang Press-er as well). BTW, the Rema Rema `Wheel In the Roses' EP, one of the original 4AD releases way back in 1980, was recently re-issued (has the original `Rema Rema' theme on it) and is a great record (you'd never know it was 1980 and not 1986)] Greg P.S. New Lustmord is rad - gets better with each listen.
Love-Hounds-request@EDDIE.MIT.EDU.UUCP (02/17/87)
Really-From: rutgers!uwvax!astroatc!gtaylor (Mais, ou sont les neiges d'antan?) (Great EB quote there.) >>Actually, IED might even be willing to agree that Skylarking >>is one of the best LPs "of the year." The obvious point to make >>is that this isn't saying much, since there were NO very good LPs made >>in 1986. Think of the kind of mark in history an LP like Sgt. Pepper's >>made; surely you are capable of seeing that 1986 produced no such record. You know, I've been remarking of late that I tend to find this whole business of inventing a twee persona for oneself and stuffing it with cute little Britwords and sundries strikes me as something that's more commonly found in emotional cripples and persons with little faith in their own real-time egos: people who would rather invent a life than have one. But reading this little bit of comment from California starts me thinking on quite another tack. This playacting on andrew's part allows the boy to spout all kinds of wonderful objective judgements and take no credit for them at all. It's IED who's the smug, condescending one, not poor andrew. Maybe andrew actually believes that we're willing to make a separation between the persons and somehow forgive *him* for acting like your garden-variety elitist when he has his little IED suit on. Yeah. Look at that above paragraph and tell me you're reading the work of someone who has carefully considered the language in which he couches his critical pronouncements. He seems ah so blissfully unaware of all this, though. IED *might be willing* (what'll you give him....) The obvious point (obvious to all but fools) there were NO very good LPs made in 1986 (what can I say there?) surely you are capable of seeing (there's hope for the unwashed yet) Think of the mark in history an LP like (I'm certainly aware of it and if you use your brains, you'll be aware too.) Just back up a posting or so and check this stuff out.... >>As Doug says, this is absolute bullshit, and it reveals the sore >>limitations of your own expertise on the subject in which you claim >>such superiority. Have you never heard of John Cage? Hell, there are >>even several pieces "composed" by Satie in the twenties, which are >>widely recognized as prototypes of conteporary minimalism. >>And of course, parts of the Well-Tempered Clavier, The Art of the Fugue, >>and the sixth Suite for solo cello (all by Bach) are masterpieces >>of extreme minimalism. We'll avoid for the moment the point that andrew seems to have confused Minimalism as a compositional category (to which we might well appeal to Eno's releases on the Obscure label in the min-70s..a then relatively unknown bunch who have since become well known and identified as Minimalists: Gavin Bryars, John Adams, John White, Michael Nyman, and Eno's own "Discreet Music") with minimalism. Perhaps if andrew made an effort to listen to himself, he'd *hear* the kind of smugness and elitism dripping out of that tone of response. Remember, andrew: those who are truly discerning and righteous like yourself can certainly spare a little charity for the churlish and unwashed masses-particularly if you truly *do* believe that the ideas you defend are more important than your/IED's ego. Oh. This is all a kind of clever charade, and andrew is assuming his IED persona so that he can say things he could never say on his own. As of the last posting, there's even some clever little note about someone doing his typing for him while while that cad Raffles and little Buttercup are off on holiday. And just think: all those clever little horsie and bunny sig lines are coming from a single, very real human being on the other end of a terminal somewhere. Makes you quiet and sad. -- "And all the seven heavens showed to me/their magnitudes, their speeds, the distances/of each from each. The little threshing floor/that so incites our savagery was all-/from hills to river mouths-revealed to me..." Dante, Paradiso (XX I,148-152) Gregory Taylor (gtaylor@astroatc)