[net.sf-lovers] SF and criticizing

mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (05/29/85)

From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der Mouse)

     Sorry Davis (druri!dht in #175),  I finally have to respond.  There
are a few things I take issue with in that.

     I think  I agree with your definition of a hack,  as you worded it.
Trouble is, I will argue with your usage of competent.  Competency, used
in reference  to  a creative person (such  as a painter or writer) could
very  well be a  compliment---of their  technique,  as opposed  to their
imagination.  Granted, both are indeed needed.

>....or that "Where  The Wild  Things Are" and the  Dr.  Seuss books show
>more imagination and extrapolation than Star Trek.

     I  must argue with you here.    Not only  because you touch a nerve
when you  denigrate  Star  Trek, but I  think there's another aspect  to
this.   Seuss and WTWTA  are both *fantasy*, and  children's  fantasy at
that  (children's  fantasy  can  get  away  with  a  lot  more).    More
imagination,  perhaps  (though  some  of  the  ST  episodes  get  pretty
imaginative).  Extrapolation, though, is what SF is all about, and given
the  restrictions  (don't  forget *when* it was  made!),  Star  Trek did
awfully well (I'm  not talking about the movies here;  you have a  point
there).

>But  it  is hard  to  believe  that  Robert  Heinlein  *ever*  kept  his
>overbearing personality  out of  the mouths  of every character.   "Time
>Enough  For Love" was a nightmare -  Robert A. Heinlein  living forever,
>and worse, *talking* forever.

     Several things here.   One, so what if Heinlein wants  to write the
way  you say?  Nobody's  making you  read his stuff.   Two, I  disagree.
Read  `The Moon  is a  Harsh Mistress'.   Manuel O'Kelly-Davis certainly
doesn't strike me as the average Heinlein Competent Man.  (Personally, I
liked TEFL.  Not sure why.)

>...science fiction....has almost no true masters that are....held  up by
>the aficionados as  examples to young acolytes.   Instead, the old hacks
>are deified and glorified.

     You've nearly  contradicted  yourself.    Remember,  not  everybody
agrees with your opinion that  those who are `deified and glorified' are
`old  hacks' instead  of `true masters'---indeed,  there  are  plenty of
people who disagree.  Me, for example.  Well,  they *were*  masters when
they were in their prime.

>[old hacks are deified and glorified.] Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke.
>....if instead, the examples....were Aldiss, Ballard, and Silverberg.

     All three  (Asimov, Heinlein, and  Clarke) have written good  stuff
(try  early output  in all  three cases,  done before they could sell on
their  names alone instead of selling on the story).  Not that I want to
slam any of the other  three; indeed, I  haven't read enough  work I can
recall to be by any of them to be able to offer an opinion.

>....new authors who are rarely more than warmed-over [your favorite past
>author here].  ....    ....Christopher  Stasheff, ...., Spider Robinson,
>...., Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey....

     All the authors I left in the above passage I happen to like (or at
least, like some of  their  stuff).    On the other hand, perhaps you're
right.  Surely you don't call Darkover or Pern `real' SF---which is  all
you claim to be talking about.  They are more fantasy.  Stasheff I don't
know.  Had someone already done a Gramarye?  It's the first time I'd met
such an idea.    Spider Robinson  I  like  for  Callahan's  [Two  books:
Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and Time Travelers Strictly Cash].  (This is
probably because of my weak spot for puns).

					der Mouse

			{ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse

PS.  Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between "comics" and "comix"?