spaf@gatech.CSNET (Gene Spafford) (06/27/86)
In article <282@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > > [description of the junker] > > If you start using it, please send me a note at one of the >addresses below. I can understand if people don't want to jump into it >without some net-wide use of it on certain newsgroups; I would appreciate >it if a group of backbone or near-backbone people would start using it When Jamie first posted his proposal about writing the "junker," I didn't take it too seriously -- I thought the feedback others provided was sufficient to point out that the concept was undesireable. I really, really appreciate the fact that he has put some thought into the problem and even went to the effort of producing some code to implement his fix, but his solution is much worse than the problem itself. In my opinion, mucking about with the contents of news is outright vandalism, especially since the current software structure means that reception of a mangled copy of the article will prevent an intact version from arriving via another route. To see if I was the only one objecting to the junker, I polled the other backbone admins and the moderators by mail. I have received 22 responses so far, all but two from backbone admins. Every single one is vehemently against the junker. Many suggested attempts at reprisals against any site "junking" articles in "mod" groups or net.sources. Most (19) felt that junking *any* newsgroup was offensive. I suspect that this view is not in the minority. I asked them what their comments were on someone else's (Charlie Wingate) posted comment that he wouldn't even forward mail to sites running the junker. Many supported that or a similar stance. Some of their edited comments are included below. I have omitted names and other identifying info. Summary: we appreciate efforts to help reduce traffic, but mangling and vandalizing news is not one of those methods. Sites are obviously free to run any software they choose, but running the "junker" or any other software causing widespread damage to the integrity of the Usenet does so at their own risk and with active opposition from the majority (if not the totality) of the backbone and many associated sites. Comments: ---- ...maybe [I'd] break into his system and run junker on /etc/passwd ---- Anti junker. All the way. Nuke it til it glows and shoot it in the dark. ---- I wouldn't run it here, and I'd discourage others from running it, but not having the hooks or time to beat on them, I personally wouldn't go to any superhuman efforts to stop others from running it. ---- If I found a neighbor newsfeed junking articles, I would turn off the link. We have gone to so much effort to insure that news articles are transmitted intact. The "junker" approach seems to be completely against the spirit of: the net, linking of sites, accurate data transmission, mutual cooperation. etc. "Junker" is little-boy spitefulness expressed in computer code. I prefer to work in a different (adult?) mode. ---- I will not, under any circumstances, run 'junker'. ---- I think 'junker' is bad for the net. It is a simple-minded attempt to solve a complex problem, rather than using some brainpower and coming up with an intelligent solution. It also, in my opinion, will not work. It will never be installed at [my site]. Not for technical, non-technical, talk, soapbox or any other newsgroup. It will make USENET into a joke. I prefer rmgroup to junker. It doesn't make any sense. Kill it before it multiplies. Need I say more? ---- traffic, but it is quite another to alter it and send it on down the line--is this significantly different from adding nasty comments into a message? And, wasn't there once a discussion about being a common carrier? That is, I was under the impression that [my site] wouldn't be taken to court if we pass traffic from other places that might be considered to be illegal in nature. Wouldn't we lose this standing if we started applying *any* editorial control beyond the decision to carry or not to carry? ---- I ignored the [pejorative deleted], not believing he could be serious. Woe to me for again overestimating the idiocy of the network... ... it will just cause a new set of "such and such an article was truncated, please repost" followed by repostings. The people it is designed to go after will quickly learn to get around it. pheh. I'd be tempted to hack my Path to make sure they never SAW an article of mine, and perhaps hack my mailer to not only not forward to them, but to eat anything enroute to them regardless of where it went next. The thing is nasty and insidious. Take a look at how the whitespace bug in 2.10.2 affected the net, and think about how a conscious and intentional bug would affect things. In many respects, the two are the very same. ---- If they were sites I fed, I would stop feeding them. I might be tempted to drop them from my L.sys..... I guess the problems with the junker have already been publicized: the fact that it's too easy to work around, that the offender (or their SA) is never told, etc. I particularly dislike the way it lets sites "pretend" to offer full service, while in fact they aren't. At least now, if a site doesn't care net.rec.drugs, you know you're not getting the whole thing. ---- Discarding articles might be acceptable in some cases, but mutilating them is wrong both morally and as a technical solution. No news connections for sites that mutilate articles. ---- Junk Junker. ---- I would cut the UUCP connection entirely. I would call on the management of the site [running junker] to persuade the offending party to cease and desist. If this was ineffective, I'd call the management of sites that they fed and ask that they find an alternate feed. I'd call the management of sites that feed the offending site and ask that his feed be terminated. I'd also give the offending party's name to every headhunter I knew... :-) ---- -- Gene Spafford Software Engineering Research Center (SERC), Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf@Gatech.GATECH.EDU uucp: ...!{akgua,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!spaf