pwu@uwmacc.UUCP (Peter Wu) (08/09/86)
---
What's the difference between the 800 and 800 XL other than the
built-in basic? About half of the games I have that worked on
the 800 doesn't work on the 800 XL at all. Is there any way to
fix this?
peter
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uucp: {akgua|allegra|harvard|ihnp4|seismo|topaz|ucbvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!pwu
arpa: pwu@unix.macc.wisc.edu
bitnet: uwmacc!pwu@wiscvm or WU at WISVMACCwrd@tekigm2.UUCP (Bill Dippert) (08/10/86)
In article <139@uwmacc.UUCP>, pwu@uwmacc.UUCP (Peter Wu) writes: > --- > What's the difference between the 800 and 800 XL other than the > built-in basic? About half of the games I have that worked on > the 800 doesn't work on the 800 XL at all. Is there any way to > fix this? > > peter Different OS's which if the game producers had of used legal entry points would not have made any difference. However, a lot of the early games used areas of the OS that they should not have. The 800XL still conforms to what Atari calls out in their documenation. The solution happens to be simple, tho. Most Atari dealers or user's groups have what is known as translator disks. You use the translator disk to boot up initially rather than your game disk. Then it prompts you when to load the game. It in effect changes the OS from the XL to the OS of the older 800. If this explanation does not make sense, you probably will have many others trying to answer your question also. Atari Corp. C/S also used to have the translator disk available, but I don't know if they still do or not. There are two sides to it: translator A and translator B. I have always used only the TA side, do not know really what the TB side is for. I think that TB was for the 1200XL OS. Now that I think about it, there are some games that will run on my 800XLE or 130XE, but require the translator for the 1200XLE. Normally dedicate the 130XE for word processing and telecommunications and keep the 800XLE free for games. As a result, I seldom use the 1200XLE and virtually never for games. (800XLE/1200XLE are 800XL/1200XL with 256k memory expansions--Newell Industries version). --Bill--
appelbau@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Marc Appelbaum) (08/11/86)
Try using the ATARI translater or the FIX xl from ANTIC.
--
Marc L. Appelbaum
Arpa: appelbau@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Uucp: ...{allegra, harvard, seismo, sri-iu, ut-sally}!topaz!appelbaucbbrowne@watnot.UUCP (Christopher Browne) (08/11/86)
In article <139@uwmacc.UUCP> pwu@uwmacc.UUCP (Peter Wu) writes: >--- >What's the difference between the 800 and 800 XL other than the >built-in basic? About half of the games I have that worked on >the 800 doesn't work on the 800 XL at all. Is there any way to >fix this? > >peter There are several things that could cause the games not to work. (It would help if I knew which ones they are - There are a few programs which will not work on an XL, period. But most can be corrected). When Atari brought out the 1200XL (this is useful history, I hope), they created a new operating system, which includes the self-test (which did not exist on the 400/800 - there was a 'memo pad' instead), and software to detect the Help key, and other new 'Function Keys' (which do not exist on 800XLs, but still show up in the self-test. If you look at the keyboard test, there are several keys which do not exist). They moved some routines around, which meant that some software written for the 800s (and which was written WRONG - the routines really should not have been used because they were subject to change) does not work. People started to notice this, and felt the need to correct the problem. Atari made a "Translator" disk which makes an XL think that it is an 800, and ANTIC and ANALOG magazines have both created Translators which they claim work better than Atari's version, and various companies have offered Translators which are probably superior to the magazine versions. I would suggest that you look at users groups/public domain libraries to find one. Atari has allowed their version to be distributed in the public domain, and software from the magazines is usually fairly easy to get. Whatever you do, don't pay more than $5 (if someone is selling it). These Translators are generally quite effective, and any software that doesn't work with them probably will not work on an XL at all. Now, I gather that a pretty fair proportion of the programs will not work with the 800XL. If it's more than 1 in 10, then I think that the problem is probably that you are not disabling BASIC. As you have mentioned, the 800XL has Basic built-in (this is a truly advanced and amazing feature :-) ). To run many programs, one must disable Basic (ESPECIALLY if it is a game requiring 48K). One does this by holding down the OPTION key as one turns on the computer. Timing is not critical - just push OPTION before you turn it on, and let go when the computer seems to be doing something useful - like loading the program. Holding it too long won't hurt. Not enough - start over. (If you know this already, I apologize for hand-holding.) This is a simple problem to deal with, once you know about it. Unfortunately, as far as Atari's documentation is concerned, it's rather obscure. Obscurity is not new to them. I do not use any of their documentation for this reason. I go elsewhere. I hope that some of this is useful, and even (gasp!) informative. Christopher Browne University of Waterloo
gillen@convexs.UUCP (08/12/86)
There are several differences betwixt the 800 and 800XL. Notably: 1. A new version of the OS ROM. Many bugs were fixed and routines shuffled about. Programs that didn't adhere to the published entry vectors and CIO calls, were bitten badly. 2. Two fewer game ports. Ports 3 and 4 were disposed of. From what I've seen of the memory maps, it also looks like the RAM locations used by those ports were usurped for memory management facilities. 3. More RAM. The problem you're experiencing with "old games not working" isn't unusual. Many programmers took short cuts and called various OS routines directly. When the routines were shuffled about as part of the new OS, the short cuts broke. There is a remedy, though. There is a "translator disk" that you can boot that will load the old OS into some of the available RAM. Many of the broken programs will then work. As for obtaining a copy of the translator, well, I don't have a good answer. There are a few floating around, some in the public domain (see Antic magazine's insert of public domain diskettes), some from user groups, or some from Atari (I think you can still get 'em there). Check around is all I can suggest. Dave I can't sing and I can't dance ... guess I'll have to program for a living.
hyc@UMIX.CC.UMICH.EDU (Howard Chu) (08/14/86)
Talk about obscurity... Do the XL/XE machines come with documentation
on the built in Atari BASIC? Mine didn't... (It was used...) As a matter
of fact, it didn't come with *any* sort of documentation. Not that you
really needed anything else. (The modem and disk drive came with "system
assembly instructions," so I guess that's good enough. My drive was new
so it had the DOS 2.5 disk and docs as well...)
Does anyone know of a place that still sells De Re Atari?
Howard Chuappelbau@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Marc Appelbaum) (08/14/86)
Try looking in either ANTIC or ANALOG for an add from B & C Computers,
or American TV one of them will have DE RE ATARI, or you could order
it directly from ATARI.
Marc
--
Marc L. Appelbaum
Arpa: appelbau@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Uucp: ...{allegra, harvard, seismo, sri-iu, ut-sally}!topaz!appelbaujhs@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA (08/14/86)
American TV in California sells de re Atari, last I heard. I think the price was around $12 or 12.50 plus shipping. They also have Inside Atari Basic for about $6, although this is a book for beginners. Your Atari Computer and Atari XL/XE Users' Guide are the best overall books, especially the former. They show up on a lot of bookstores' shelves. There is also a book called the Atari BASIC Source Book, which tells all the secrets about the BASIC interpreter, including listing the source code. (I guess for version A.) Serious hackers should also get Inside Atari DOS, which is excellent, though it contains at least one error I have noticed. The O/S manual and listings are available from Atari. The computer sells for $69.95 now but you can spend $200 on documentation! I'm going into the publishing business! -John Sangster jhs@mitre-bedford.arpa
store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) (08/15/86)
*****[Ignore header path]***** > > Does anyone know of a place that still sells De Re Atari? > B&C Computervisions is advertisizing De Re Atari for $10 in their latest ad in ANTIC. Their address is: B&C Computervisions 3283 Kifer Rd. Santa Clara, CA 95051 (408)-749-1003 Hope this helps... Kit Kimes AT&T--Information Systems Labs 1100 E. Warrenville Rd. Naperville, IL 60566 ...ihnp4!iwvae!kimes
dsmith@hplabsc.UUCP (David Smith) (08/22/86)
> > What's the difference between the 800 and 800 XL other than the > > built-in basic? About half of the games I have that worked on > > the 800 doesn't work on the 800 XL at all. Is there any way to > > fix this? > > ... The solution happens to be simple, tho. Most Atari > dealers or user's groups have what is known as translator disks. You use the > translator disk to boot up initially rather than your game disk. Then it > prompts you when to load the game. It in effect changes the OS from the XL to > the OS of the older 800. I have a couple of translator disks, which I suppose work for improperly written software distributed on disks. But the improperly written software I have is on cartridges. How can you run that on an 800xl? David Smith {backbone!}hplabs!dsmith
hyc@UMIX.CC.UMICH.EDU (Howard Chu) (08/22/86)
The Translator disk I have, which is called "The XL Fix" has a menu of three options - boot a Basic program off disk, boot a machine language program off disk, and boot a cartridge. The 3 cartridges I own run fine on my XL, so I've never tried the catridge option to see how it worked... -- Howard Chu hyc@umx.cc.umich.edu
jhs@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA (08/23/86)
Ha! that's one case where you probably would be very wise to buy CDY's OmniView operating system chip. It is about the only commercial product I know of which will run a cartridge which is incompatible with the XL O/S. The only other possibility might be some kind of hardware mod which lets you load the translator O/S, then insert a cartridge without resetting to the ROM version of the O/S. I know that the cartridge normally does a hardware reset because of a short between two of its pins. I'm not sure what happens after that, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out if one has a schematic and good documentation on the O/S. Anyway, you can buy OMNIVIEW off the shelf and solve the problem, while also getting 80-column capability. -John Sangster jhs@mitre-bedford.arpa
dsmith%hplabsc@HPLABS.HP.COM (David Smith) (08/24/86)
The Translator disk I have, which is called "The XL Fix" has a menu
of three options - boot a Basic program off disk, boot a machine
language program off disk, and boot a cartridge. The 3 cartridges I
own run fine on my XL, so I've never tried the catridge option to
see how it worked...
-- Howard Chu
hyc@umx.cc.umich.edu
How is that supposed to work? Are you supposed to plug the cartridge
into the slot with the computer already running? I didn't think that
was safe. But if you power up with the cartridge in the slot, it will
boot off the cartridge and not the disk.
David Smith
{backbone!}hplabs!dsmithcbbrowne@watnot.UUCP (Christopher Browne) (09/03/86)
In article <8608232228.AA02986@hplabsc> dsmith%hplabsc@HPLABS.HP.COM (David Smith) writes: > > The Translator disk I have, which is called "The XL Fix" has a menu > of three options - boot a Basic program off disk, boot a machine > language program off disk, and boot a cartridge. The 3 cartridges I > own run fine on my XL, so I've never tried the catridge option to > see how it worked... > -- Howard Chu > hyc@umx.cc.umich.edu > >How is that supposed to work? Are you supposed to plug the cartridge >into the slot with the computer already running? I didn't think that >was safe. But if you power up with the cartridge in the slot, it will >boot off the cartridge and not the disk. > > David Smith > {backbone!}hplabs!dsmith It would seem to be possible (if you're careful) to keep the 'Translated' OS in memory when you plug in a cartridge. Most definitely, plugging in a cart. will NOT destroy the computer. Would Atari sell a machine that can be so easily destroyed by a little mistake by a consumer? Certainly not! (This data is not merely my own assertion - it has been stated by Bill Wilkinson of OSS, and by various other people over the years. They know some of the technical side too). I plug in and unplug cartridges all of the time on my XL, with no ill effects (well, the computer does lock up pretty good - but when I press reset, it clears up. What do you expect when a computer's program suddenly disappears from memory while it's executing?). On to Translators and Cartridges. Way back (I think in either late '84 or early '85) Analog Magazine produced their own 'Homemade Translator' (which works quite well - and can be used for some neat tricks). In the article, the author said that you could use it with some of those cartridges, if you insert the cartridge very carefully (and then reset using the special reset combination that the program used). The idea was, put the cartridge in the slot, but don't push it in far enough to cause electrical contact. Then, in one clean, swift motion, push it in (make sure everything is straight so that it goes in cleanly) Apparently, if you push it in fast enough, the circuitry gets fooled into thinking that nothing has actually happened - that is - it does not detect the insertion of the cartridge. This may or may not work for other translators. If this is a help to anyone, great! I suspect, however, that it won't be. I don't remember seeing anything in the discussion about any specific cartridges that needed to be used. I hope at least that this discussion has not (will not?) be(en?) boring. -- Christopher Browne University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics "To do is to be." -- Aristotle "To be is to do." -- Socrates "Do be do be do." -- Sinatra "Do be a do bee." -- Miss Sally of Romper Room fame. "Yabba dabba do." -- Fred Flintstone