gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (05/08/86)
In article <306@sdcarl.UUCP>, tre@sdcarl.UUCP (Tom Erbe) writes: > I logged on to the Atari Home Base BBS last night and found many useful > programs. However, I do not wish to pay for the phone time. Would any > one at Atari be willing to make these programs available by E-mail??? > thomas r. erbe > {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax}!sdcarl!tre Sure, let's let {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax} pay so this guy can play with his Atari. After all, he can't afford it, but they can. In fact, why not just post the entire contents of the BBS to the net -- then *everybody* can pay for the phone time. This doesn't even rate a :v} because it's not funny. Every morning I get up and say "why do I flame so much on the net when I'm trying to be kinder in my personal life?" Every night I run into these bozos though... -- John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa
andy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (05/08/86)
In article <779@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >In article <306@sdcarl.UUCP>, tre@sdcarl.UUCP (Tom Erbe) writes: >> I logged on to the Atari Home Base BBS last night and found many useful >> programs. However, I do not wish to pay for the phone time. Would any >> one at Atari be willing to make these programs available by E-mail??? >> thomas r. erbe >> {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax}!sdcarl!tre > >Sure, let's let {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax} pay so this guy can >play with his Atari. After all, he can't afford it, but they >can. In fact, why not just post the entire contents of the BBS to >the net -- then *everybody* can pay for the phone time. > >John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa Please! He didn't say he couldn't afford it; He said he didn't WISH to pay for the phone time. Somehow, that makes it worse. -- andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy or pyramid!amiga!andy "I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors." "Remember, no matter where you grow, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonsai.
turner@imagen.UUCP (05/09/86)
> In article <306@sdcarl.UUCP>, tre@sdcarl.UUCP (Tom Erbe) writes: > > I logged on to the Atari Home Base BBS last night and found many useful > > programs. However, I do not wish to pay for the phone time. Would any > > one at Atari be willing to make these programs available by E-mail??? > > thomas r. erbe > > {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax}!sdcarl!tre > > Sure, let's let {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax} pay so this guy can > play with his Atari. After all, he can't afford it, but they > can. In fact, why not just post the entire contents of the BBS to > the net -- then *everybody* can pay for the phone time. > > This doesn't even rate a :v} because it's not funny. > > Every morning I get up and say "why do I flame so much on the net when > I'm trying to be kinder in my personal life?" Every night I run into these > bozos though... > -- > John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** why not indeed ? i am in the process of implementing the recently posted automatic retrival program for mod.sources and i am considering included as much of the atari16 sources as i can get my hands on. since when is the purpose of the net changed from the free exchange of ideas and information ? i certainly believe that software falls into that catagory. -- ---- "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes" -Blade Runner Name: James M. Turner (not the James M. Turner at Lisp Machine Inc.) Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101 Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 AT&T: (408) 986-9400 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner CompuServe: 76327,1575 GEnie : D-ARCANGEL
demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) (05/10/86)
> >Every morning I get up and say "why do I flame so much on the net when >I'm trying to be kinder in my personal life?" Every night I run into these >bozos though... >-- >John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa Yup...you're a real sweet guy, John... ... this doesn't deserve a :-) either.... -- --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo "If you can't trust wimp lawyers anymore, who can you trust...?" -- Mildred Krebs
oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) (05/10/86)
In article <218@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: >In article <779@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >>Sure, let's let {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax} pay so this guy can >>play with his Atari. After all, he can't afford it, but they >>can. In fact, why not just post the entire contents of the BBS to >>the net -- then *everybody* can pay for the phone time. > >Please! He didn't say he couldn't afford it; He said he didn't WISH >to pay for the phone time. > >Somehow, that makes it worse. > Here's the good part... > andy finkel > Commodore(Amiga) > {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy > or pyramid!amiga!andy > Some poor little guy who makes $3.07/hr flipping burgers at the local snack bar is flamed for "abusing the net", while people like andy finkel at Commodore feel free to use *my* tax dollars to support the Amiga! Talk about people in glass houses! Both of you guys should lighten up; I'm sure there are people at hoptoad who spend money on things which, say, Greg Woods at hao really doesn't give a flying fumigation about, but do you see that nice guy with his ST (not Greg, the flamee) complaining? (And before you point out that Commodore isn't the only company doing this at our expense, I already know that. It's just that when a representative (official or not) of an unmistakably for-profit company flames some innocent citizen for "abuse", I get severely annoyed.) - Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)
rick@seismo.CSS.GOV (Rick Adams) (05/11/86)
In article <360@imagen.UUCP>, turner@imagen.UUCP writes: > > why not indeed ? i am in the process of implementing the recently > posted automatic retrival program for mod.sources and i am > considering included as much of the atari16 sources as i can get my > hands on. since when is the purpose of the net changed from the free > exchange of ideas and information ? i certainly believe that > software falls into that catagory. It seems to me that if I pay to transmit your free exchange of ideas is ceases to be free. You can send whatever you want at your expense, but when you ask me to pay for it (even implicity) you give me the right to interfer with it. I remove an average of 2 full source copies of rogue or hack from the mail queues on seismo each week. It takes about $45 worth of phone time to transfer that free exchange of information. Federal Express and a mag tape would only be about $40, yet how many people ever think about it. It cost them nothing to mail it electronically (except for the non-North Americans). I really wish the US had some sort of recharging scheme like they do in Europe. Is there really an extremely high correlation between the belief in the obligation of free exchange and 1/(number of users your computer supports) or am I overly sensitive. ---rick
tre@sdcarl.UUCP (05/13/86)
.
So what is the verdict?? Is the posting of sources and binaries for
the ST kosher? Or is the net only around for UNIX and like systems? If it
is, how are the following newsgroups justified?
net.sources.mac
mod.amiga.sources
mod.amiga.binaries
I for one, use many machines (IBM,SMI,DEC,Atari,Apple,Motorola,etc.)
at work, and most of them are not UNIX machines. I appreciate getting useful
programs for these machines from the net. If I have to, I will call a BBS
to get certain useful programs, but I prefer not to, when: A) UCSD (my place
of employ) should be paying for the acquisition, B) it is annoying to stay up
until 1 AM, only to get 20 minutes of access to a busy BBS, and C) my VAX has
uucp, which does it all so much better.
I had always suspected the net was around for the exchange of software
and related dialogue. I had no idea I would get flamed for suggesting it
continue. Please reply with intellegence this time, but if you really have
to flame, mail it to me, don't post it.
--
thomas r. erbe
{ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax}!sdcarl!treseifert@hammer.UUCP (Snoopy) (05/15/86)
In article <317@sdcarl.UUCP> tre@sdcarl.UUCP (Tom Erbe) writes: >. > So what is the verdict?? Is the posting of sources and binaries for >the ST kosher? Or is the net only around for UNIX and like systems? If it >is, how are the following newsgroups justified? > > net.sources.mac > mod.amiga.sources > mod.amiga.binaries > > I for one, use many machines (IBM,SMI,DEC,Atari,Apple,Motorola,etc.) >at work, and most of them are not UNIX machines. I appreciate getting useful >programs for these machines from the net. If I have to, I will call a BBS >to get certain useful programs, but I prefer not to, when: A) UCSD (my place >of employ) should be paying for the acquisition, B) it is annoying to stay up >until 1 AM, only to get 20 minutes of access to a busy BBS, and C) my VAX has >uucp, which does it all so much better. I don't see why UNIX machines should be expected to pay for distributing software and discussions for other operating systems. Why can't they set up their own network? Disk space and phone lines aren't free for machines that run UNIX anymore than they are for machines that run mac/amiga/ST/PC-DOS/VMS/whatever. (Before someone mentions groups like net.cooks, consider the difficulties of connecting a modem to your average saucepan.) Snoopy tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy
franco@iuvax.UUCP (05/16/86)
It seems to me that most BBSs that I hook into allow 1hr connect time.
However, these BBSs are so busy that it is virtually impossible to get
on except between 3:00-5:00AM weekdays and 3:00-9:00AM weekends (EST).
Obviously the demand for file transmission has exceeded resource capacity.
Hence an alternative is desperately needed. The net is a great alternative
in many ways. I think it should be utilized immediately for this purpose.
Realizing, however, that there are valid concerns regarding too much
software being put on the net I think that certain restrictions should
be imposed on source/binary transmission. Exactly what the optimal formula
is I don't know but it probably should involve a combination of file length
and number of transmissions per week. I would be very happy if everyone
could agree on such a formula because, in my mind, the result would be a
much more useful net. While I am here let me propose a formula for binaries:
Let U(P) denote the number of storage units used by program P. Let S(P)
be the size of a file in kbytes. Define U(P) as
U(P)=S(P) DIV 8
I propose that the total numbers of storage units transmitted over the net
per week be less than 8. Net users would be asked not to transmit any more
units of data until the number of units transmitted over the previous two
week period fell below 16. I am not making any great claims for this
proposal...I am just throwing it out for purposes of generating discussion.
By the way - don't ask me for any BBS numbers...if any more people find out
about these numbers I will not be able to get on even saturday morning at
5:00AM (EST).turner@imagen.UUCP (05/16/86)
talk about excessive quoting ! ill try to trim this down > In article <360@imagen.UUCP>, turner@imagen.UUCP writes: > > > > why not indeed ? . . > > since when is the purpose of the net changed from the free > > exchange of ideas and information ? i certainly believe that > > software falls into that catagory. > > > It seems to me that if I pay to transmit your free exchange of > ideas is ceases to be free. > i (in the form of my company) just paid for your ideas being transmitted > You can send whatever you want at your expense, but when you ask > me to pay for it (even implicity) you give me the right > to interfer with it. horse puckey! first who said that the free (read 'uncensored') exchange of ideas was free (read 'without cost')? it ain't second, you have a right to censored what you recieve at your machine but not what passes thru it. the system i am building based on email, hence if you are not a newsfeed you bear none of the costs, if on the other hand you are a newsfeed to others then you have given your implicit consent to bear the costs of a newsfeed. > > I remove an average of 2 full source copies of rogue or hack > from the mail queues on seismo each week. > (sarcastic comment about net.police deleted (-:) {by net.police.police ?} . . > > Is there really an extremely high correlation between the belief in the > obligation of free exchange and 1/(number of users your computer supports) > or am I overly sensitive. > either you're from Stanford and don't know english or UC Berkeley and don't know math, but you mean function not correlation (the original joke was MIT and Harvard and has lost alot in the translation) > ---rick -- ---- "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes" -Blade Runner Name: James M. Turner (not the James M. Turner at Lisp Machine Inc.) Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101 Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 AT&T: (408) 986-9400 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner CompuServe: 76327,1575 GEnie : D-ARCANGEL
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (05/16/86)
In article <360@imagen.UUCP>, turner@imagen.UUCP writes: > > since when is the purpose of the net changed from the free > exchange of ideas and information ? i certainly believe that > software falls into that catagory. The original request was for E-mail, not for a posting to the net. I don't think that there would be much objection to a net posting of the material in question, since it would probably be useful to many people, perhaps even some who pay the costs. -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
chuq@sun.UUCP (05/18/86)
> I don't see why UNIX machines should be expected to pay for distributing > software and discussions for other operating systems. Why can't they > set up their own network? Disk space and phone lines aren't free for > machines that run UNIX anymore than they are for machines that run > mac/amiga/ST/PC-DOS/VMS/whatever. Because there is a large base of users of those machines that happen to be using Unix machines to communicate. The reality is that USENET hasn't been a unix network for a long time, just a network that uses Unix. If you're serious about limiting yourself to Unix discussions, we need to kill everything else off except Unix, which would kill the net. chuq -- :From the lofty realms of Castle Plaid: Chuq Von Rospach chuq%plaid@sun.COM FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your hands and hoping when a rock or a club will do -- McCloctnik the Lucid
jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) (05/19/86)
In article <2021@hammer.UUCP> tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy (Snoopy) writes: > >I don't see why UNIX machines should be expected to pay for distributing >software and discussions for other operating systems. Why can't they >set up their own network? Disk space and phone lines aren't free for >machines that run UNIX anymore than they are for machines that run >mac/amiga/ST/PC-DOS/VMS/whatever. > >(Before someone mentions groups like net.cooks, consider the difficulties >of connecting a modem to your average saucepan.) > >Snoopy >tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy I don't see why educational computer installations should pay for the distribution and development of Unix system. Perhaps it would be better if they limited their transmissions to library catalogues and lecture schedules. Surely nothing more than that can be justified. Cheers! -- Jim O. -- James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura (416) 652-3880
manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) (05/20/86)
I find this whole discussion rather offensive. Indeed, this whole newsgroup should not exist if one is going to construe things narrowly. (Our department owns not one ST, and I doubt that it will ever buy one. Most members of the net are in the same position.) Asking someone to E-mail some public domain code is, as far as I'm concerned, a reasonable use of the net. (It might be even better to ask for the code to be posted.) Any ST-related stuff of a non-commercial nature ought to be grist for net.micro.atari16's mill. For Tramiel's sake, let's get back to some sensible discussion!
turner@imagen.UUCP (05/21/86)
> > I don't see why UNIX machines should be expected to pay for distributing > software and discussions for other operating systems. Why can't they > set up their own network? Disk space and phone lines aren't free for > machines that run UNIX anymore than they are for machines that run > mac/amiga/ST/PC-DOS/VMS/whatever. > > (Before someone mentions groups like net.cooks, consider the difficulties > of connecting a modem to your average saucepan.) > > Snoopy > tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy (as our hero mounts his high horse, he turns and says....) if we were dealing in machines and not people i would agree with you but we are not. Allow me to stretch a point, you surely expect your company to light your office, provide furniture, health bennies etc. why ? UNIX machine do not need any of those ! We are dealing in people here and (at least) i do not live by unix alone. and i will mention net.cooks, rec, motss etc. the beauty of the net is its breadth of interests, its exciting to feel that you're not just tied into another techno-nerd net. -- ---- "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes" -Blade Runner Name: James M. Turner (not the James M. Turner at Lisp Machine Inc.) Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101 Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 AT&T: (408) 986-9400 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner CompuServe: 76327,1575 GEnie : D-ARCANGEL
andy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (05/21/86)
In article <2206@uwmacc.UUCP> oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >In article <218@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: >>In article <779@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >>>Sure, let's let {ucbvax,ihnp4,akgua,hplabs,sdcsvax} pay so this guy can >>>play with his Atari. After all, he can't afford it, but they >>>can. In fact, why not just post the entire contents of the BBS to >>>the net -- then *everybody* can pay for the phone time. >> >>Please! He didn't say he couldn't afford it; He said he didn't WISH >>to pay for the phone time. >> >>Somehow, that makes it worse. >> > Here's the good part... > < Flaming Portion Deleted > > - Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) Well, I've already responded to the portion accusing Commodore of abusing the net and being a bad net.citizen by email. (and haven't heard anything back from Joel in response. (Basically, I just paraphrased George Robbins posting, pointing out that we feed news/mail around, and have to fight for our phone lines/charges like any other company, and that usenet was an own-time occupation for the engineers here) Now, to make it real clear WHY I wanted to respond to that initial message... <Flame On > It was the line "I don't WISH to pay". That was the trigger. I have nothing against sources for *any* machine being posted. I can almost always learn something from any source, even if I don't happen to use that machine. (that's why I don't like binaries, but that's something else). No, what I was commenting on was the *rather have someone else pay for something I want* attitude in that initial posting. The request wasn't *Please email/post because I can't afford them* or *Please email/post because I can't get them otherwise*, but *I'd rather have someone else pay* Whether the stuff is posted, or emailed makes no difference to my dislike of that attitude. <Flame Off > (To the initial poster: sorry about all the fuss. I wasn't *really* attacking you personally :-) By the way, since you want to use the stuff for your work, why not see if your company/university/whatever will pick up your phone bill ? (assuming the stuff isn't posted, that is) andy finkel -- andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy or pyramid!amiga!andy Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. "Remember, no matter where you grow, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonsai.