c9c-bg@buddy.Berkeley.EDU (James Landay) (09/23/86)
Data Pacific (David Small) has finally started to sell the Mac emulator for the Atari ST. It is called (Magic sack). They were selling it this weekend at the Atari Expo in San Jose (9/20-9/21). They sold out the initial supply of 200 in 4 hours and thereafter took orders to be shipped in 2-3 weeks. Show price $100. They will sale them later for (~$130). They plan on coming out with a drive modification that will read mac disks. James Landay I have no affiliation with Data Pacific. ________________________________________________________________________________ "Everyone has to believe in something, I believe I'll have another beer!"
fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (09/23/86)
I bought one of the Mac emulators, which is called a Magic Sac. (TM)
My experience so far has not been good, although I am probably the
exception that proves the rule. (Don't draw a negative conclusion until
you've read at least the last paragraph of this tale)
I bought the MS on Saturday (before they sold out) and also got some
rom chips at the show. I took the whole contraption, as well as my 1040ST
in to where I work and tried to use the supplied download program to download
some software from my MacLisa.
(The package comes with a Macintosh program which, in cooperation with
a GEM program on the ST will download an image of a Macintosh disk using the
RS232 port. One of the misfeatures of Magic Sac, resulting from Apple and
Atari using incompatible disk formats is that it requires its own diskette
format, and none of GEM, Magic Sac, or the Macintosh can read each other's
disks.)
After considerable effort, I was unable to copy the diskette, packed up
and went home. Sunday, I returned to the show (costing me the price of
another admission,) in the hopes of finding a solution. Dave agreed that
the code won't work on a Lisa, leaving me no way to download a system
diskette, and thereby no way to use the cartridge.
However, apparent help was present in the Data Pacific booth, in the
form of Alex Leavens, who offered to sell me a 'starter set' of diskettes in
MAGIC format, which would contain a system and finder image, a couple of
Boston Macintosh users group public domain diskettes, and a diskette
containing Red Ryder and Free Term. So, for a mere 40 additional dollars, I
was set -- I thought.
I drove home, inserted the boot disk in the ST, booted magic, inserted the
MAGIC disk with the finder and got a Macintosh bomb. I drove back to the
AtariFest, and convinced someone at the booth that I had bad diskettes.
I set down with one of the other Data Pacific people and used their ST to
make sure I had a complete set of working disks. (Two of the four diskettes
I had been given were bad)
I rushed home (Milpitas, by the way is about 30 minutes from the show site)
rebooted and sure enough got a 'welcome to macintosh' prompt. As soon as I
saw the finder, I decided to make backup copies of my four hard won
diskettes, so I went back to gem and formatted six magic diskettes. (You
can't use the Mac's format routines, because they make hardware assumptions
about the controler which aren't true. . .)
I rebooted Magic, got a finder, tried to copy, and discovered that there is
a bug in magic which makes it impossible to copy files from one diskette to
another on a single diskette system. (I haven't bought an external drive
for my 1040, because I'm saving up for a hard disk :-)
Back in the car for the third time, and back to the show, where I talked
to Dave Small again. Showed him the bug, which he said he would get fixed
as soon as he got back home, and asked him if I could use his two diskette
systems to make my copies, since I would still be OK as long as I had
backups and working terminal programs to download with.
While making the backups, someone in the crowd asked if I had tried the
terminal programs yet. So, we tried the various terminal programs that were
on the starter disk, and sure enough, NONE of them worked!
My situation at this point: I can't download diskette images because the
downloader doesn't work with a Lisa, I can't backup with a single drive
system, and I can't download at all because the terminal programs don't work.
I pointed this out to Dave Small, and he offered to return my money. I told
him I would like to give him a chance to fix the problems that we had
identified, and that if he could get me started, I would rather have the
Magic Sac than the money.
Alex, who had been having trouble with other diskette sets also offered to
return my money for the starter set, and I said I would also like to have a
working starter set, rather than the money.
So, Alex is going to get me diskettes within a week, and Dave has four bugs
I discovered (1: No single disk copy under GEM; 2: No single disk copy under
MAGIC; 3: Broken terminal emulators under Magic; 3: No way to download
diskettes from a Lisa) which he has promised to fix. And I'm going to
borrow a 'real' mac to try diskette downloading from.
If Dave Small can fix bugs 2 and 3, I'm going to keep the Magic Sac just
because of the amount of PD software for the MAC I'm going to be able to run.
(Data Pacific claims that if it runs on a LISA, it will run on Magic Sac,
and I've got a lot of stuff on my MacLisa.)
Even though my weekend was shot, and the thing still isn't working for me, I
have faith in the people that I talked with, and expect to be hearing
positive things back soon.
I'll keep you posted.
Martyespen@well.UUCP (Peter Espen) (09/24/86)
In article <275@zen.BERKELEY.EDU>, c9c-bg@buddy.Berkeley.EDU (James Landay) writes: > > Data Pacific (David Small) has finally started to sell the Mac emulator for > the Atari ST. It is called (Magic sack). They were selling it this > weekend at the Atari Expo in San Jose (9/20-9/21). They sold out the initial > supply of 200 in 4 hours and thereafter took orders to be shipped in 2-3 weeks. > Show price $100. They will sale them later for (~$130). They plan on > coming out with a drive modification that will read mac disks. > I read several other messages on another net from people who said they bought the Mac Emulator box at the Atari Expo in S.J. They also mentioned that they went to another booth and purchased the Mac ROMS. Is this possible? I don't recall hearing about Apple authorizing the third party sale of their ROMs. Could someone fill me in on this? Peter Espen
fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (09/24/86)
Apple only allows the ROMs to be sold through authorized apple
service centers.
There is a fascinating grey area in the law regarding the
restrictions Apple may or may not place on who the service center can
sell them to, and if the purchaser can then resell. . .
The ROMs were being sold at the B&C computer visions (A Santa
Clara Atari only store) booth.
----------tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (09/24/86)
How did they solve the legal problems with using code from Mac ROMs? -- What's the difference between a duck? Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (09/24/86)
In article <8609230616.AA24405@ames-nas.ARPA> fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA writes: > > However, apparent help was present in the Data Pacific booth, in the >form of Alex Leavens, who offered to sell me a 'starter set' of diskettes in >MAGIC format, which would contain a system and finder image, a couple of >Boston Macintosh users group public domain diskettes, and a diskette >containing Red Ryder and Free Term. So, for a mere 40 additional dollars, I >was set -- I thought. > Hmmm... $40 is the price for Red Ryder. Does that mean that they are paying for Red Ryder for you, or is the $40 you payed Alex Leavens in addition to the $40 that Scott Watson should get for Red Ryder? If the $40 to Alex Leavens does not go to Scott Watson, do they make it clear that you haven't bought RR? -- What's the difference between a duck? Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh
ACS19@UHUPVM1.BITNET (Mike Vederman) (09/26/86)
In case you don't know, or haven't used Red Ryder much, it says that you can use Red Ryder for 30 days, then decide if you wish to use the software, in which case you are asked to send money for documentation and registration. Otherwise, he asks that you destroy it, or pass it on to someone else. It would seem to me that, Data Pacific is doing him a favor by providing a larger distribution base. It would also seem that they are not *ripping him off* as I have inferred from your message. They seem to be doing what any other person might do, passing on the software (among other software which was not mentioned by name). Flame on It seems that you are looking to start something where nothing is. If you truly care about Mr. Red Ryder losing his fair share, then take your grievance to him. Not by posting an insuating letter on the net. I am not affiliated with Data Pacific or David Small, but I do not appreciate someone who is looking for an argument. Both companies are doing the ST community a favor. Flame off Mike Vederman
fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (09/26/86)
Magic Sac itself doesn't include any Apple code. Rather, you must
buy a set of ROMs from Apple yourself.
Although not yet tested in court, there is precedence in the
assumption that Apple cannot restrict sales of the ROMs to people who
don't own MacIntoshes, stemming from the observation that mainframe
vendors are required to sell their software to customers of plug
compatable machines. (We run MVS and VM on our Amdahls, for example.)
The same assumption is being applied to the system and finder
images which are also required to make Magic Sac work. I bought my
system and finder from a licensed Apple developer. His license with
Apple allows him to include system and finder images in the software he
sells, and (he claims, I haven't read it) does not restrict him to
sales only to Apple owners.
However, Apple will not allow Data Pacific to resell the ROMs, or
license Data Pacific for the system and finder images. This is also in
accordance with precedence. (We get our MVS from IBM not Amdahl.)
There are three separate legal issues in the Magic Sac, all of
which Data Pacific believes they have correctly handled. The first two
are the ROMS and system images mentioned above.
The third is if Magic itself violates any Apple copyrights or
patents. Since Magic is only a translator which intercepts some of the
behavior of the Macintosh software and makes it work on the Atari
hardware, rather than an emulator, it looks to me as if it doesn't
violate any copyrights, etc.
Marty
----------fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (09/26/86)
I didn't ask, assuming I was paying the $40 to them for their
work, and would have to pay seperately for Red Ryder if I was going to
keep it.
I have always made the assumption when given a diskette with
shareware not written by the distributor on it that whatever I paid the
distributor was for the diskette, and that I was still honor bound to
pay for whatever shareware I use.
In the case of these diskettes, I assumed I was paying for the
System and Finder images, and the cost of getting four diskettes.
(I'll probably keep Red Ryder and pay for it, since I use it on my
Mac at work, and it seems reasonable.)
----------fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (09/26/86)
It seems I implied something that isn't true.
I bought the diskette set from Alex Leavens, who was also working
out of the Data Pacific Booth. He is not working for Data Pacific, and
I did NOT buy the diskettes from Data Pacific.
As I have mentioned before, Apple will not license Data Pacific to
distribute the System and Finder images with Magic Sac, so I had to go
to a licensed developer to obtain them.
What I received was four diskettes. The first contains the system
and finder images. The second contains FreeTerm and Red Ryder. The
third and fourth are Boston Macintosh User's Group diskettes in Magic
format, although I don't have the distribution numbers handy.
I did not see this as an attempt to cheat any of the authors
involved, and the only reason I can't give you a better answer about
what the forty bucks was for is that I didn't ask at the show.
I know that I would be pleased to see my shareware distributed by
Data Pacific if I were doing Apple Software. I find putting shareware
on these disks to be equivalent to making it available through buletin
boards.
----------tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (09/30/86)
In article <8609261610.AA17706@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> ACS19@UHUPVM1.BITNET (Mike Vederman) writes: >In case you don't know, or haven't used Red Ryder much, it says that you can >use Red Ryder for 30 days, then decide if you wish to use the software, in >which case you are asked to send money for documentation and registration. >Otherwise, he asks that you destroy it, or pass it on to someone else. > >It would seem to me that, Data Pacific is doing him a favor by providing a >larger distribution base. It would also seem that they are not *ripping him >off* as I have inferred from your message. They seem to be doing what any >other person might do, passing on the software (among other software which was >not mentioned by name). > In case you don't know, many people who pay money for disks that contain shareware think that they have payed for the shareware, and thus don't have to send in any additional money. From the posting I was responding to, it sounded like RR was the only thing on those disks that was not free, and that there were only two or three disks. $40 seemed a little high for three disks of free stuff unless the seller of the disk was selling Red Ryder. >Flame on > Shields up! >It seems that you are looking to start something where nothing is. If you >truly care about Mr. Red Ryder losing his fair share, then take your >grievance to him. Not by posting an insuating letter on the net. >I am not affiliated with Data Pacific or David Small, but I do not appreciate >someone who is looking for an argument. Both companies are doing the ST >community a favor. > You are seeing insuation[sic] where there was only curiousity. >Flame off Shields down! -- What's the difference between a duck? Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh
fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (10/01/86)
Once again, I apologize for starting this flaming session by not being
clear what was on the disks I bought. The $40 bought four disks:
1) System/Finder
2) FreeTerm/Red Ryder
3) BMUG 9.blah (Some demos from the Boston Macintosh User's Group)
4) BMUG 14.blah (More demos from BMUG)
I assumed I was paying for the System/Finder, four blank diskettes, and
the effort to make copies of the software, and that I am on my own for the
shareware.
Alex Leavens did not try to mislead me about what I was buying. I
assume rather than I know, because I didn't specifically asked. Everyone in
the booth was open and honest about all questions I did ask.
Martykushnier@NADC (10/02/86)
Marty, Could you please specify the MAC ROM part numbers needed for the MAC Emulator. I would like to check on availability before buying the board. Thanks, Ron Kushnier kushnier@nadc.arpa
fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA (10/03/86)
According to the Magic Sac documentation, the Apple part numbers are
either
324-00220-A (c) Apple 84 and 324-00221-A (c) Apple 84
or
324-00220-B (c) Apple 84 and 324-00221-B (c) Apple 84
The part numbers specify to Apple PROMS. I am using the Rev B
parts, and they seem to work.
I have been told that Apple wants a high price for the parts, and
that better deals can be made through distributers.
Marty
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