Info-Atari16@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU (Info-Atari16 Digest) (11/03/86)
Info-Atari16 Digest Monday, November 3, 1986 Volume 86 : Issue 2 This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield Today's Topics: LIMIT ON TOTAL NUMBER OF FILES ON AN ST DISK ?? micro-C-shell and MT-C-shell Re: UNITERM Re: Volume of net traffic Re: UNITERM V1.5C PART 3 OF 4 (UNITERM.B) Re: copy protection flame phreakers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: "V5130B::MENTON" <menton@v5130b.decnet> Subject : LIMIT ON TOTAL NUMBER OF FILES ON AN ST DISK ?? To: "info-atari16" <info-atari16@su-score> Reply-To: "V5130B::MENTON" <menton@v5130b.decnet> Is there a limit on the total number of files on an ST disk, either single-sided or double-sided? While copying over 200 FORTRAN subroutines from an IBM PC/AT to a VAX to the ST (total bytes well below the capacity of a SS disk), the file copy bombed at about 111 files. This same limit was reached (same error message, something about a file not being opened to write ??) when the destination disk was formatted DS. I tried to copy an additional file to the disk, to see if it was a limitation of the XMODEM program. Nope - same error message - the disk would just not take another file, even though it was well below its max capacity. Any thoughts on why this happened would be appreciated. I don't remember reading about a limit to the number of file names on an ST disk, analogous to the 64-file limit with the 8-bit Atari disk drives. Bob Menton MENTON@NRL Buckaroo Banzai: "Take the wheel. It drives like a truck". John Parker: "Good. What is a truck?" ------------------------------ From: mcvax!lasso!didier@seismo.CSS.GOV Date: Fri Oct 31 17:07:41 GMT+1:00 1986 To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Subject: micro-C-shell and MT-C-shell Would some kind soul give me a serious description on the uCshell and MTCshell packages ? The names are fairly suggestive, but I wonder how functionnaly close to a Unix csh they may be. In particular, are they of any serious use for systems without a hard disk ? Are we talking freebees here, or are they $old (price ?) ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didier Giralt LAAS-CNRS 7 av du Colonel Roche ...!seismo!mcvax!inria!lasso!didier 31077 Toulouse Cedex France ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 12:05:10 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!reading!minster!martin@seismo.css.gov Subject: Re: UNITERM To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Did anyone in the UK get a working copy of UNITERM? I'm told that it was distributed in 4 parts, but we saw none of these. If anyone has it and would be willing to send it to me, could they please let me know by mail? Did this program, which everyone says is very good, actually reach Europe or the UK? Martin PS. Apologies to those outside Europe, to whom this may not be very interesting. usenet: mcvax!ukc!minster!martin surface: Martin C. Atkins Department of Computer Science University of York Heslington York Y01 5DD ENGLAND ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 18:31:53 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!bath63!pes@seismo.css.gov (Paul Smee) Subject: Re: Volume of net traffic To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu I'm not convinced that 'descriptions and mail to requesters' would actually cut the net traffic. At present (bar accidents) net stuff crosses the Atlantic once (to Holland, innit?), crosses the Channel once, and so on. A separate trans-Atlantic posting to each requestor would pretty obviously crank the transmitted bitcount right up. Similar arguments, of course, apply to non-international posting. Also, I think that this net has a higher connectivity than 'pure user mail', so that solution would leave lots of people out, I spect. Better, the idea (is it reelly going to happen) of a separate meeting for the software, so that them as don't want it can more easily miss it out. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 18:57:08 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!bath63!pes@seismo.css.gov (Paul Smee) Subject: Re: UNITERM V1.5C PART 3 OF 4 (UNITERM.B) To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Sigh. Someone up there doesn't want me to have UniTerm 1.5c. Our site finally received parts 1, 2, and 3 of the 16th (19th? it's scrolled off my screen) posting of 1.5c. Assuming that the part 3 I got earlier was correct (got it twice, and they both matched) the new part 3 was savagely truncated =678 lines, missing about 600 if I counted right. Part 2 ('A') was also chopped off short. So, I've now got Part 1 Read Me Part 2 ('A') 1 bad copy (truncated) Part 3 ('B') 2 good copies and one bad (truncated) Part 4 ('C') 1 good copy Of course this all assumes that the Parts were all the same each time. Anyone with UK PSS or JANET access (or US ARPA) willing to trade a part A for one of my spare part B's :-). JANET: Smee at AUCC ARPA: Smee at AUCC via UCL-CS.ARPA (in whatever syntax your favorite mailer uses for at's and via's) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 19:01:49 GMT From: amdahl!drivax!holloway@csvax.caltech.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: copy protection flame To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <246@bath63.UUCP> pes@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Paul Smee) writes: >I had a go at copying the Epyx disk. It appears to work, but when you >try to run the copy, you get put into what appears to be an infinite >'put disk A into drive A; put disk B into drive A' loop. I actually >gave that a try for a bit over 80 swaps, figuring that, since they hadn't >said it was copy-protected, they might have simply made it 'unattractive' >to copy by requiring that you somehow 'validate' the 80 tracks individually. >Finally decided that's not the case. It annoyed me enough to decide that >I think I'll try to crack that one, though. I copied Rogue over to my hard disk, and it runs fine from there, although it requires the original disk in 'A'... it just accesses it for a couple of seconds. Also, you can only save files to the original disk! But at least the loading time is slashed, especially for those l-o-n-g picture files. -- ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway (I'm not THAT Bruce Holloway, I'm the other one.) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 10:45:13 GMT From: ihnp4!chinet!cabbie@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Andrews) Subject: phreakers To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu This is an article that I found. Read it and weep. Rich Andrews ...ihnp4!chinet!cabbie by John "C". Sucilla This sucker is pretty long (287 lines). I just downloaded it from Plantz'z machine and thought it might be a good idea to make it available here. I have no idea if this is for real or not at this time. I hope not! The Night of the Hackers ________________________ . As you are surveying the dark and misty swamp you come across what appears to be a small cave. You light a torch and enter. You have walked several hundred feet when you stumble into a bright blue portal. . . With a sudden burst of light and a loud explosion you are swept into . . . DRAGONFIRE . . . Press Any Key . You have programmed your personal computer to dial into Dragonfire, a computer bulletin board in Gainesville, Texas. But before you get any information, Dragonfire demands your name, home city and phone number. So, for tonight's tour of the electronic wilderness you become Montana Wildhack of San Francisco. . Dragonfire, Sherwood Forest (sic), Forbidden Zone, Blottoland, Plovernet, The Vault, Shadowland, PHBI and scores of other computer bulletin boards are hangouts of a new generation of vandals. These precocious teenagers use their electronic skills to play hide-and-seek with computer and telephone security forces. Many computer bulletin boards are perfectly legitimate: they resemble electronic versions of the familiar cork boards in supermarkets and school corridors, listing services and providing information someone out there is bound to find useful. But this is a walk on the wild side, a trip into the world of underground bulletin boards dedicated to encouraging -- and making -- mischief. . The phone number for these boards are as closely guarded as a psychiatrist's home telephone number. Some numbers are posted on underground boards; others are exchanged over the telephone. A friendly hacker provided Dragonfire's number. Hook up and you see a broad choice of topics offered. For Phone Phreaks -- who delight in stealing service from AT&T and other phone networks . Phreakenstein's Lair is a potpourri of phone numbers, access codes and technical information. For computer hackers -- who dial into other people's computers -- Ranger's Lodge is chock-full of phone numbers and passwords for government, university and corporate computers. Moving through Dragonfire's offerings, you can only marvel at how conversant these teen-agers are with the technical esoterica of today's electronic age. Obviously they have spent a great deal of time studying computers, though their grammar and spelling indicate they haven't been diligent in other subjects. You are constantly reminded of how young they are. . "Well it's that time of year again. School is back in session so let's get those high school computer phone numbers rolling in. Time to get straight A's, have perfect attendance (except when you've been up all night hacking school passwords), and messing up you worst teacher's paycheck." . Forbidden Zone, in Detroit, is offering ammunition for hacker civil war -- tips on crashing the most popular bulletin-board software. There also are plans for building black, red and blue boxes to mimic operator tones and get free phone service. And he re are the details for "the safest and best way to make and use nitroglycerine," compliments of Doctor Hex, who says he got it "from my chemistry teacher." . Flip through the "pages." You have to wonder if this information is accurate. Can this really be the phone number and password for Taco Bell's computer? Do these kids really have the dial-up numbers for dozens of university computers? The temptation is too much. You sign off and have your computer dial the number for the Yale computer. Bingo -- the words Yale University appear on your screen. You enter the password. A menu appears. You hang up in a sweat. You are now a hacker. . Punch in another number and your modem zips off the touch tones. Here comes the tedious side of all of this. Bulletin boards are popular. No vacancy in Bates Motel (named for Anthony Perkin's creepy motel in the movie "Psycho"); the line is busy. So are 221 B. Baker Street, PHBI, Shadowland and The Vault, Caesar's Palace rings and connects. This is different breed of board. Caesar's Palace is a combination Phreak board and computer store in Miami. This is the place to learn ways to mess up a department store's anti-shoplifting system, or make free calls on telephones with locks on the dial. Pure capitalism accompanies such anarchy, Caesar's Palace is offering good deals on disc drives, software, computers and all sorts of hardware. Orders are placed through electronic mail messages. . 'Tele-Trial': Bored by Caesar's Palace, you enter the number for Blottoland, the board operated by one of the nation's most notorious computer phreaks -- King Blotto. This one has been busy all night, but it's now pretty late in Cleveland. The phone rings and you connect. To get past the blank screen, type the secondary password "S-L-I-M-E." King Blotto obliges, listing his rules: he must have your real name, phone number, address, occupation and interests. He will call and disclose the primary password, "if you belong on this board." If admitted, do not reveal the phone number or the secondary password, lest you face "tele-trial," the King warns as he dismisses you by hanging up. You expected heavy security, but this teenager's security is, as they say, awesome. Computers at the Defense Department and hundreds of businesses let you know when you've reached them. Here you need a password just to find out what system answered the phone. Then King Blotto asks questions -- and hangs up. Professional computer-security experts could learn something from this kid. He knows that ever since the 414 computer hackers were arrested in August 1982, law-enforcement officers have been searching for leads on computer bulletin boards. . "Do you have any ties to or connections with any law enforcement agency or any agency which would inform such a law enforcement agency of this bulletin board?" . Such is the welcoming message from Plovernet, a Florida board known for its great hacker/phreak files. There amid a string of valid VISA and MasterCard numbers are dozens of computer phone numbers and passwords. Here you also learn what Blotto means by tele-trial. "As some of you may or may not know, a session of the conference court was held and the Wizard was found guilty of some miscellaneous charges, and sentenced to four months without bulletin boards." If Wizard calls, system operators like King Blotto disconnect him. Paging through bulletin boards is a test of your patience. Each board has different commands. Few are easy to follow, leaving you to hunt and peck your way around. So far you haven't had the nerve to type "C," which summons the system operator for a live, computer-to-computer conversation. The time, however, however has come for you to ask a few questions of the "sysop." You dial a computer in Boston. It answers and you begin working your way throughout the menus. You scan a handful of dial- up numbers, including one for Arpanet, the Defense Department's research computer. Bravely tap C and in seconds the screen blanks and your cursor dances across the screen. . Hello . . . What kind of computer do you have? . Contact. The sysop is here. You exchange amenities and get "talking." How much hacking does he do? Not much, too busy. Is he afraid of being busted, having his computer confiscated like the Los Angeles man facing criminal changes because his computer bulletin board contained a stolen telephone-credit-card number? "Hmmmm . . . No," he replies. Finally, he asks the dreaded question: "How old are you?" "How old are YOU," you reply, stalling. "15," he types. Once you confess and he knows you're old enough to be his father, the conversation gets very serious. You fear each new question; he probably thinks you're a cop. But all he wants to know is your choice for president. The chat continues, until he asks, "What time is it there?" Just past midnight, you reply. Expletive. "it's 3:08 here," Sysop types. "I must be going to sleep. I've got school tomorrow." The cursor dances "*********** Thank you for Calling." The screen goes blank. Epilog: . A few weeks after this reporter submitted this article to Newsweek, he found that his credit had been altered, his drivers' licence revoked, and EVEN HIS Social Security records changed! Just in case you all might like to construe this as a 'Victimless' crime. The next time a computer fouls up your billing on some matter, and COSTS YOU, think about it! _______________________________ . This the follow-up to the previous article concerning the Newsweek reporter. It spells out SOME of the REAL dangers to ALL of us, due to this type of activity! _______________________________ The REVENGE of the Hackers _______________________________ . In the mischievous fraternity of computer hackers, few things are prized more than the veil of secrecy. As NEWSWEEK San Francisco correspondent Richard Sandza found out after writing a story on the electronic underground's (DISPATCHES, Nov. 12, 198\ ability to exact revenge can be unnerving. Also severe.... Sandza's report: . "Conference!" someone yelled as I put the phone to my ear. Then came a mind-piercing "beep," and suddenly my kitchen seemed full of hyperactive 15-year-olds. "You the guy who wrote the article in NEWSWEEK?" someone shouted from the depths of static, and giggles. "We're going disconnect your phone," one shrieked. "We're going to blow up your house," called another. I hung up. . Some irate readers write letters to the editor. A few call their lawyers. Hackers, however, use the computer and the telephone, and for more than simple comment. Within days, computer "bulletin boards" around the country were lit up with attacks on NEWSWEEK's "Montana Wildhack" (a name I took from a Kurt Vonnegut character), questioning everything from my manhood to my prose style. "Until we get real good revenge," said one message from Unknown Warrior, "I would like to suggest that everyone with an auto-l modem call Montana Butthack then hang up when he answers." Since then the hackers of America have called my home at least 2000 times. My harshest critics communicate on Dragonfire, a Gainesville, Texas, bulletin board where I am on teletrial, a video-lynching in which a computer user with grievance dials the board and presses charges against the offending party. Other hackers -- including the defendant --post concurrences or rebuttals. Despite the mealtime interruptions, all this was at most a minor nuisance; some was amusing, even fun. . FRAUD: The fun stopped with a call from a man who identified himself only as Joe. "I'm calling to warn you," he said. When I barked back, he said, "Wait, I'm on your side. Someone has broken into TRW and obtained a list of all your credit-card numbers, your home address, social-security number and wife's name and is posting it on bulletin boards around the country." He named the charge cards in my wallet. . Credit-card numbers are a very hot commodity among some hackers. To get one from a computer system and post it is the hacker equivalent of making the team. After hearing from Joe I visited the local office of the TRW credit bureau and got a copy of my credit record. Sure enough, it showed a Nov. 13 inquiry by the Lenox (Mass.) Savings Bank, an institution with no reason whatever to ask about me. Clearly some hacker had used Lenox's password to the TRW computers to get to my files (the bank has since changed the password). . It wasn't long before I found out what was being done with my credit-card numbers, thanks to another friendly hacker who tipped me to Pirate 80, a bulletin board in Charleston, W.Va., where I found this: "I'm sure you guys have heard about Richard Stza or Montana Wildhack. He's the guy who wrote the obscene story about phreaking in NewsWeek Well, my friend did a credit card check on TRW . . . try this number, it' a VISA . . . Please nail this guy bad . . . Captain Quieg. . Captain Quieg may himself be nailed. He has violated the Credit Card Fraud Act of 1984 signed by President Reagan on Oct. 12. The law provides a $10,000 fine and up to a 15-year prison term for "trafficking" in illegally obtained credit-card account numbers. He "friend" has committed a felony violation of the California computer-crime law. TRW spokeswoman Delia Fernandex said that TRW would "be more than happy to prosecute" both of them. . TRW has good reason for concern. Its computers contain the credit histories of 120 million people. Last year TRW sold 50 million credit reports on their customers. But these highly confidential personal records are so poorly guarded that computerized teenagers can ransack the files and depart undetected. TRW passwords -- unlike many others -- often print out when entered by TRW's customers. Hackers then look for discarded printouts. A good source: the trash of banks and automobile dealerships, which routinely do credit checks. "Everybody hacks TRW," says Cleveland hacker King Blotto, whose bulletin board has security system the Pentagon would envy. "It's the easiest." For her her part, Fernandez insists that TRW "does everything it can to keep the system secure . In my case, however, that was not enough. My credit limits would hardly support big-time fraud, but victimization takes many forms. Another hacker said it was likely that merchandise would be ordered in my name and shipped to me -- just to harass me. I used to use credit-card numbers against someone I didn't like," the hacker said. "I'd call Sears and have a dozen toilets shipped to his house." . Meanwhile, back on Dragonfire, my teletrial was going strong. The charges, as pressed my Unknown Warrior, include "endangering all phreaks and hacks." The judge in this case is a hacker with the apt name of Ax Murderer. Possible sentences range from exile from the entire planet" to "kill the dude." King Blotto has taken up my defense, using hacker power to make his first pleading: he dialed up Dragonfire, broke into its operating system and "crashed" the bulletin board, destroying all of its messages naming me. The board is back up now, with a retrial in full swing. But then, exile from the electronic underground looks better all the time. +----------------------------------------------+ | END of COLOSSUS NEWSLETTER Issue 3, Volume 1 | | Please upload to MANY boards! | +----------------------------------------------+ (Chuck: Whew!) (Ed: My fingers cramped again!) Dave I. I'm not surprised. If *I* ever get my hands on one of these little theives, I'll show him or her how a professional can scramble their silicon... Seriously, I don't know how anyone expected something different. We can teach kids all the tech skills necessary to do these things, but it's just not considered part of either the formal curriculum, or a parent's duty, to teach a sense of ethics about use of such skills. I once let loose on a bunch of students at U of W who were on the system staff; they considered it perfectly OK to read anyone's electronic mail that passed through their machine, or between students and professors. Not only that, but if you annoyed one of them, you might find your files munged or missing. By the time I got through, I'm sure that they got my message. Don't believe for a moment that they'd do anything about it, but they knew that when they got out into the 'real world', if they ever did something like that and I caught them, they'd be fired--or worse. Oh, well...this is just one of my sore points. These twits are going to ruin it for all the rest of us, unless we police them ourselves... meg We get a few phreakers or hackers on M-Net now and then, at least they claim to be, mostly we drive 'em out by means of some 'practical jokes' we engineer, that and a combination of the fact that Mike states every where and anywhere that if anyone comes investigating, all his files and stuff are open and for the record. That usually keeps it at a minimum, and they are never around long enough to cause any trouble on the board, nor do anything illegal. Was interesting tho, a conversation I had with someone who professed to be a hacker, no longer on M-Net, and his absolute conviction that what he was doing was perfectly alright and he honestly believed no one had a right to complain. I was completely dumbfounded, myself. rob Anyone have any ideas of how we can rid the computer world of these types? It's always the bad who receive publicity... Arthur F. I hate to say it, but business should have adopted a different equivalent of the ASCII code for transfering data jjw Easiest way to rid the world of these is to have intelligent people in charge of setting up security in the first place, followed by more intelligent people using it. I had my share of this s**t at Harper College, where a bunch of local phreaks thought they could run the system out from under the school. I did them one better - joined the school and ran it as secure as I could make it (within the limits that the school itself imposed). Some general ideas - y'all remember a few years ago the kid that broke into DePauls system? I knew him, and the other guy who helped was my friend's cousin (both sorta twits). It helped that DePaul kept last years password list as a readable ascii file, open to public inspection. Seems they used 3 character passwords. Also, the first letter was between A and M. Took about 20 minutes to break through. When they changed it, the new password followed the same format. The program that allegedly did so much damage had been around for several months. All the authorities denied that it could possibly crash the system, and refused to listen to me when I told them. Eventually, HP came up with a fix that took care of it, but DePaul somehow didn't think it needed that fix. I'd kind of like to make the sys administrators liable for damages on any system that gets broken into. It would encourage them to take much better care in designing the security. Oh, also, on my home BBS system (not yet up, but getting there slowly), I have a sure way to prevent anybody from getting through. Even supposing that they can crash the program, the modem's hooked up to the serial printer port. I do *all* my own i/o, and if it crashes, they're not a console, they're a printer and the system ignores them. Also, I am *not* going to allow so-called 'sysop' stuff to be done from within the system. To do these functions, you'll have to be physically in my apt, at my terminal, running programs outside of the bbs system. The worst I can come up with would be to bring each user down, but even that won't let anybody do anything un-cool. kji I like the idea of the i/o through the serial printer stuff. I could throw up a board in not time if I only had the smart modem. Have all the programs setup with tons of pd stuff, but no $ for the modem. jcs Here's an idea for twit control: Uzi's & Mac 10's are rarely argued with. bhv If kids can get into the credit bureaus, imagine what the professionals can do. It seems to me that the credit bureaus are the weak link in the chain, and it would be better to work on increasing their security than to try and police every kid in existence. greg I have little worry of a serial port of any kind being turned into a tty controlling the system since {there's no way to control the mouse via that port.. and even if they could, they couldn't see what they were doing anyway.. Problem solved... rlk I don't think the credit agencies themselves are bad, its the clients who don't maintain security of their passwords. I've seen several places where access passwords were taped to the wall over the terminal, and the terminals were in public access areas so that everyone 'knew' the shop was computerized. One place must have had a nearsighted operator, 'cause the password had been written using a magic marker. You could read it from the lobby. pgy There is also the other extreme of security. I'm currently working on a team programming project for which we have a librarian who maintains among other things, the include files for the system. I came in today and reran the make file for my current sub project. I was immediately informed that cc could not find the include files. I thought that perhaps the files had been reorganised (this is something I've been told to expect soon). But upon further investigation, I found that read permission for the world had been removed from the include directory. In order to access these files I had to newgrp to the special group which only the librarian defaults to, and then re-run the make. It was a small annoyance, but it was an an annoyance. These files are most decidedly NOT secret -- there was no good reason to take read permissions off of that directory. Especially in a development environment, security should be only as tight as necessary. jcs There is a new guy in our department who was doing the same thing. He had post-its with logins & passwords for all the Indian Hill machines we use hanging all around his terminal. He even had his login/password for our machine embedded in his function keys. It took about 10 minutes to convince him that we WOULD use his login to wreak havoc on his files if he didnt get rid of the stuff. He cleaned up his act in a hurry! LMHY: Sounds like you could use the Change Management System (CMS) available from Bell Labs. It would make everybody's life easier there. CMS=Change Management System. Let's say you have a product that consists of N directories with a couple hundred source files involved (ours consists of a few thousand files). You have X number of developers working full time on the product and the files are in a constant state of flux. Under CMS, only one developer can modify a file(s) at a time. All other developers are denied access to the file(s) until he is done with it. There are typically three "nodes" available to the CMS user. 1) The "Official" node - where the last release was generated from. 2) The "Approved" node - where files are kept after they have been approved by the test team and before an integration has been performed. Integration moves the files from approved to official. 3) The "Local" node - where changes are made and proved in by the developer. Here is a simplified scenario of a change: Programmer jcs needs to change x.c for some reason. He generates an MR (modification request). Once the MR is approved by commitee (if there is one) and assigned he gets the latest version of the file from the official node. Thats right, SCCS is involved here. He makes the required changes to the file and builds the product in his local node. The build command utilizes a viewpath which tells build where to look for the files it needs to create the product. If the viewpath looked like this - VPATH=/prod/ofc:/prod/appr:/prod/localnode build would first search /prod/ofc for the files it needs then look in /prod/appr for any missing files then /prod/localnode. If a file in /prod/localnode is newer than a matching file in the other nodes it is used instead. Now that the product is built, the developer checks it out on whatever hardware it was built for and once he's satisified with it he passes it on to the test team. If the test team kisses the change, the change is moved into the approved node and eventually into the official node. For large projects, CMS can't be beat. It's a logical way to synchronize changes and prevent a lot of unnecessary confusion. For small projects it's probably a lot easier to rap the bozo next door in the head for screwing around with your struct than it is to justify CMS. CMS is available from Bell Labs. Back to original topic for... I find it hard to get worked up if someone looks through my files. I think damaging (deleting/changing/encrypting/etc) files is a different matter. I dunno, but I certainly think your 'anti-hacker/phreak' stance is a bit more extreme then warranted. ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ************************** -------