moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (06/18/85)
From: moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN 381-2102) >> "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least >> partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche. > >Well, let me re-phrase myself--if I tell you the plot, I will ruin >the enjoyment you'll get from watching it unfold yourself. Watching >the "Alice" chess game develop is more fun than having someone >explain it all to you first, at least for me. (And, by the other Leeper): > ... Sure, a second >reading can be more fun than the first, so what? Does that make it >justified for the reviewer diminishing the pleasure on the first >reading? The second reading is more pleasurable not because the >reader knows the plot in advance, usually, but because the reader >sees more in the story. To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it. Otherwise the nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out of it. I agree with the above comment about why the second reading is more enjoyable than the first, but would say that the reason I see more in the story is because the plot cannot surprise me. I don't understand the point about watching the chess game develop the first time being more enjoyable than having someone explain it to you first. In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have the aliens landing and blowing away ever character you know about so far. I grant you that this is unlikely in the Alice stories, but it is very likely in other books, and the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through. For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell". Excellent job, SKZB. But the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped back and started with the first page, to re-read the entire book so I could *ENJOY* it this time. I do this with almost every book I read (except the ones that I didn't like for other reasons (such as boredom)). All of this applies equally to movies/plays/television/short stories/etc. Obviously not everyone agrees with this, otherwise there would not be the plethora of *** SPOILER *** warnings. Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel the way you do? Thanks. Ken Moreau
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (06/20/85)
[...] Ken Moreau wants someone to say something about spoilers because he enjoys a book more the second time through than the first. My two cents' worth: I think there is a difference between enjoying a story and enjoying a book. The nervous tension of "What is going to happen next?" that Ken had trouble with is part of my enjoyment of a story. The story is happening for me for the first time and the doubt and wonder of seeing it all is dependent on not knowing what the end will be. One can identify in whole or in part with the characters of the story as it unfolds. Of course, as you say, when you are entirely wrapped up in the story, it is harder to appreciate the book: the prose style, the themes, subtleties, etc. This is why a second (or Nth) reading of a worthwhile book can be just as rewarding as the first (at least for people who are able to appreciate more than one literary level). I suppose there are some people who have more all-encompassing reading ability and can get a multitude of levels on the first pass. I personally like having the maximum of both worlds: uncritical gobbling of vicarious thrills first time through, then a more sedate second pass (if the book warrants it, of course). Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) (06/25/85)
< I can use my magic to change the color to red -- but I don't do windows. > In article <2310@topaz.ARPA>, moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: > To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who lives, > who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone manages to), is > the only way that I can enjoy it. Otherwise the nervous tension of simply > *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen seriously detracts from any pleasure > that I might have gotten out of it. > In > fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have the aliens landing > and blowing away ever character you know about so far. . . . > the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost ruins my enjoyment of any > book the first time through. [ FlameThrower setTemp: low. ] Y'know, I always like tension, suspense, and surprise in books. This can work either way: not knowing what's going to happen (e.g., will the aliens land and blow away every character you know about so far, which make for the suspense in the first hundred pages of Niven and Pournelle's FOOTFALL), or having a pretty good idea what's going to happen, and watching the writer tighten the noose (see Orson Scott Card's ENDER'S GAME). I find I like reading a story a second time more than I like watching it a second time. Thus, given my druthers (and sufficient patience), I watch the movie before I read the book. > For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell". Excellent job, SKZB. But > the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped back and started with > the first page, to re-read the entire book so I could *ENJOY* it this time. > I do this with almost every book I read (except the ones that I didn't like > for other reasons (such as boredom)). > Ken Moreau [ FlameThrower setTemp: comfyWarm. ] I'm trying to remember the last time I finished a book (for the first time) and immediately turned back to page one and re-read it. DAMIANO? There are darned few books that can get me to do that; the ones that can are terrific. You could argue that you haven't really read a book until you've read it at least twice.* In fact, I suspect some of you will. (*Three times for LORD OF LIGHT. Five? This one was definitely a "let's go to the video tape" and re-read right away book.) (P.S.: Do the aliens land and blow away ever character you know about so far in FOOTFALL? Heh heh heh . . .) -- -Paul S. R. Chisholm The above opinions are my own, {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc not necessarily those of any {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc telecommunications company.
royt@gitpyr.UUCP (Roy M. Turner) (06/27/85)
Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel the way you >do? Well, I like surprises. I find that they are one of the things that make reading fiction enjoyable; a totally predictable book would, to me, be a waste of time to read unless the author was a *superb* craftsman/woman in other ways and could keep me spellbound with characterizations, etc. I reread books, but only after enough time has elapsed that not every detail about the plot and characters is still burned into my memory. I will admit that I often hurry through a book the first time (if it is especially fast- paced) just to see what will happen next; re-reading that book then allows me the luxury of "admiring the scenery" so to speak. But far from detracting from my pleasure, the suspense of not knowing what will come next heightens it. I suppose my tastes are as much an enigma to you as yours were to me...each to their own, eh? But do you find any enjoyment in O. Henry stories (or horror stories) at all? Regards, Roy P.S.: Thanks to all of you who put *spoiler* labels on postings! P.P.S.: Massive flames to all reviewers who spoil the plots of good books/ movies in their reviews without telling you they are about to do so! -- The above opinions aren't necessarily those of etc, etc...but they should be!! Roy Turner (a transplanted Kentucky hillbilly) School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt
JAFFE@RUTGERS.ARPA (07/08/85)
From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created. Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with the char- acters. I don't care for predictable books, and won't finish one on the first attack. For me, anyway, a book whose entire course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other factor will redeem it. Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example. Another is the Twilight Zone. These, and others, live and die mostly on the element of surprise. I do, on the other hand, reread books. Those that delivered strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story lines. Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my interest months or years later. Knowing the plot does not diminish my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons. But I would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ {sdcsvax, ihnp4}!crash!bnw
JAFFE@RUTGERS.ARPA (07/09/85)
From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created. Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with the char- acters. I don't care for predictable books, and won't finish one on the first attack. For me, anyway, a book whose entire course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other factor will redeem it. Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example. Another is the Twilight Zone. These, and others, live and die mostly on the element of surprise. I do, on the other hand, reread books. Those that delivered strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story lines. Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my interest months or years later. Knowing the plot does not diminish my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons. But I would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw
bnw@crash.UUCP (07/09/85)
From: <crash!bnw@Nosc> Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created. Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with the char- acters. I don't care for predictable books, and won't finish one on the first attack. For me, anyway, a book whose entire course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other factor will redeem it. Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example. Another is the Twilight Zone. These, and others, live and die mostly on the element of surprise. I do, on the other hand, reread books. Those that delivered strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story lines. Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my interest months or years later. Knowing the plot does not diminish my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons. But I would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@nosc uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw