Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA (07/23/85)
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Two questions for all you deep thinkers and bibliophiles out there: First, I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival theater. I won't go into what I thought of the movie, since I'm sure that was thoroughly handled on the net before I got on. (By the way, if this question has already been hashed over, somebody tell me what was said and I'll be quiet.) I left the theater with this one big, sort-of psychological question: assuming everything happened just the way the movie said it did, how did people on Earth react? It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages coming over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change the political situation one iota. So did we nuke each other or not? I think it's fairly clear that we were meant to leave the film thinking that mankind had suddenly grown up and would now live happily ever after. I, for one, would LIKE to believe that people, even big government leaders, don't **REALLY** want to blow each other up and would therefore jump at any good, face-saving excuse for not doing so. But I'm not sure I have quite enough faith in humanity to believe that. On my more pessimistic days, I would firmly expect somebody to say "Let's nuke them commies [or 'imperialist pigdogs,' if you prefer] and make the galaxy safe for democracy!!!" So what do you think? Second question-- while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of us were discussing the interface between technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even though it was a fantastic book. Any help?) Was there ever a sequel to that? Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. Zelazny's AMBER novels are close at some points, but not quite what I'm thinking of. (Probably because it, like most everything else I've ever read that comes close, deals with the introduction of an element of one world into another (i.e. guns in Amber) while I'm thinking more of a situation where the two normally coexist.) Chris Miller Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) (07/24/85)
In article <2867@topaz.ARPA>, Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > > Second question-- while waiting for a D&D game to start the other > night, several of us were discussing the interface between > technology/science and magic. > Can anyone give me some > examples of stories in a similar vein. > > Chris Miller > Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept Series. In it the same matter used as magic "mana" is also an extremely valuable source of energy. However, I do not recommend the series because although I have read this series and most of his Xanth stuff, he's very limited in his description of the capacity of magic. He limits it too much; for instance: in xanth everyone has one (1) magical ability. In the Apprentice Adept books, an adept could work magic through one means- in Style's case it was through music. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
platt@spar.UUCP (John Platt) (07/24/85)
Chris Miller asked for pointers to stories that have co-existant magic and science. One novel I could think of was "Juxtaposition" by Piers Anthony. This is a third book in a trilogy, which dealt with two superimposed worlds, one magic, and one scientific. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much justification for the superposition of these worlds, so it might not answer Chris' deep questions. john platt decwrl!spar!platt (UUCP) or platt@sri-kl (ARPA)
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (07/24/85)
In article <2867@topaz.ARPA> Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >Two questions for all you deep thinkers and bibliophiles out there: > >First, I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night [...] > I left the theater with this one big, sort-of >psychological question: assuming everything happened just the way the >movie said it did, how did people on Earth react? This has been discussed before, but I didn't particularly agree with any of the answers given, so I'll put my two cents worth in now. There is an important difference between the short term and long term effects of such an event. As I remember, the U.S. and the Soviet Union were about ready to go to war at that point. I think the events in and around Jupiter would be quite sufficient to prevent that war. (Of course, an outbreak of war was not certain; it never is, until it actually happens.) In the long run, humans are humans, and politics as usual will resume.
joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) (07/25/85)
>Second question-- while waiting for a D&D game to start the other >night, several of us were discussing the interface between >technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with >that really treated the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the >existence of one through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? ... Poul Anderson Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny Waldo and Magic Inc. by Robert Heinlein Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End', 'What Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes me.
clelau@wateng.UUCP (Eric C.L. Lau) (07/25/85)
In article <2867@topaz.ARPA> Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > >Second question-- while waiting for a D&D game to start the other >night, several of us were discussing the interface between >technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with that >really treated the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence >of one through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? I think Zelzany wrote another book called _The_Changeling_ about something like this(somebody out there check this). The setting was a parallel universe to our own where magic functions. It was about how two babies got switched between the two universes by a powerful magician. The one from the "magical" universe grows up not quite fitting in the "scientific" universe. The one from the "scientific" universe has the same problem but uses the scientific knowledge that comes naturally to him to attempt to take over his world. Eventually the confrontation is between the two characters and between science and magic. Of course it's been a while since I read it so I can't be sure of author, title or plot. Anybody out there recall a story like this? wateng!clelau
throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) (07/25/85)
> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of us > were discussing the interface between technology/science and magic. The > only novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence of > the two (as opposed to the existence of one through the other) was > OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even though it was a > fantastic book. Any help?) Drat, I can't remember either! I think it is either John Brunner or Gordon Dixon, but I wouldn't bet the rent. (I suppose I'll have to find my copy of the book if nobody else comes up with the answer.) > Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. Well, yes. The Piers Anthony "Incarnations of Immortality" series contains this notion, and is tolerably readable. Better still is Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" trilogy and the Books of Swords. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw
jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow) (07/26/85)
> First, I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival > theater. [ ...] assuming everything happened just the way the > movie said it did, how did people on Earth react? > > It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages coming > over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change the political > situation one iota. > > So what do you think? As a self-proclaimed cynic, I think that the Earthlings went right on with their nuclear war (with a suitable pause for gazing at the special effects). Why? Well, all the aliens really did was give them more living space. The Soviets and Americans weren't fighting over land, but political and economic ideals plus a whole lot of mutual paranoia. The only thing they'll do with the planets is fight over who has control of them once the earth is a glowing husk. > Second question-- [...] the interface between > technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with that > really treated the CO-existence of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ???? > ... Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. > ... I'm thinking more of a situation where the two normally > coexist.) THE WITCHES OF KARRES by James H. Schmitz falls right in that category. Another book that is worth looking into is THE DOOMFARERS OF CORAMONDE by Brian Daley. The bad guys summon a dragon, so the good guys summon an APC (they were trying for a tank). The ensueing battle is interest- ing, to say the least. Meanwhile, one other character is working to bring democracy and modern technology to a basically feudal world. Recommended. Can anyone tell us about THE PRACTICE EFFECT by David Brin? It sounds as if it might fit the description, but i haven't read it yet. "Death to war monkeys!!" the Shadow ARPA: <jeffh@brl> UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh
wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) (07/28/85)
> Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End', 'What > Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes me. \\The Magic Goes Away//. My copy is a trade paperback from Ace Science Fiction. Two more stories set in the same universe are ``The Lion in his Attic'' and ``Talisman'', both of which appear in Niven's newest collection ``Limits''. Bill Laubenheimer ----------------------------------------UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill
itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (07/29/85)
I missed the original question, but have seen it quoted. The question
seems to be about stories combining magic and technology. At the
hightech end are Keith Laumer's Lafayette O'Leary books. Slightly lower
tech, but perhaps better reading are Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the
Flame books. These also include alternate universes, D&D, and a lot of
fun.
Taken to a slight tangent are Jack L. Chalker's Soul Rider books. The
magic turns out not to be real magic, but they don't know it!
--
***
* Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA
* Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm"
* {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin
***terrys@shark.UUCP (Terry Sullins) (07/29/85)
> > OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even though it was a > > fantastic book. Any help?) > > Drat, I can't remember either! I think it is either John Brunner or > Gordon Dixon ... Operation Chaos by Poul Anderson
clelau@wateng.UUCP (Eric C.L. Lau) (07/30/85)
>> Second question-- [...] the interface between >> technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with that >> really treated the CO-existence of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ???? >> ... Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. >> ... I'm thinking more of a situation where the two normally >> coexist.) > >Can anyone tell us about THE PRACTICE EFFECT by David Brin? It sounds >as if it might fit the description, but i haven't read it yet. > > the Shadow > UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh _The_Practice_Effect is more about a world where magic is scientifically possible than one where magic and science co-exist. Any more than that would reveal the plot of the story, sorry. Even though it doesn't fit your description it's a good book anyway. Eric Lau