ARMS-D-Request@MIT-MC.ARPA (Moderator) (12/21/85)
Arms-Discussion Digest Saturday, December 21, 1985 11:48AM
Volume 5, Issue 67
Today's Topics:
better red than dead
KAL007
Propaganda
Better Dead...
Jastrow's Analogy
Better Dead...
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Date: 14 Dec 1985 11:56-EST
From: Nicholas.Spies@H.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: better red than dead
It seems a shame that those willing to emmolate the world for
their principles (US and Soviet alike) were denied the
opportunity to live out their fantasies and die in a bunker in
Berlin in 1945 along with a well-known maniac with similar
ideas. Life for the rest of us would be far safer if we were
not still blighted by self-appointed defenders of principle
who are all too willing to involve everyone else in their holy
wars.
[I don't remember if this made it to the list. sorry if it did. HL]
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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 85 13:15:49 EST
From: Herb Lin <LIN@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: KAL007
From: Michael_Joseph_Edelman%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Lin implying it was an accidental overflight that was
then used somehow as an intelligence gathering mission. Both accusations
have been made before, and both are unsupported.
Murray Sayle, writing some months back in the New York Review of Books
gave a well-documented account of how the overflight could have occured
by accident, based on past errors and known problems with KAL007's navigation
gear.
I concur that it was accidental; that's what I said. There is also no
question that U.S. intelligence agencies periodically probe the SU air
defense. They are on-line 24 hrs/day and therefore they must have
acquired information from the penetration of KAL007. Whether or not
they could have gotten it someother way is open to debate -- I myself
think so.
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Subject: Propaganda
Date: 20 Dec 85 14:44:47 PST (Fri)
From: foy@aero
I found the message from T. Siili of Finland most interesting. It has been
my opinion that much of what goes on on this net is highly parochial, and
quit often simply intellectualising rather than really dealing with the
problems and trying to find workable solutions.
It is refreshing for me to hear the comments of someone who is in a position
to see the propaganda from both the East and the West and to judge it without
being unduly under the influence of either side.
I have not heard or seen anything about US plans to use nuclear weapons
against Findland. However I didn't hear anything about the discussion of
the possible use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam untill long after it was over.
Did anyone on this net besides Charlie Crummer and myself attend the Beyond
War award ceremony? It was a six country, five continent live tv tele-
conference where the heads of states of Mexicao, Argentina, Greece, Tanzania,
Sweden, and India were given an award for their Five Continent Peace
initiative. It was the most impressive thing that I have been a part of for
a long time. If Gorbachev and Reagan were able to really hear what those
heads of state said we would be well on the way towards real solutions.
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Subject: Better Dead...
Date: 20 Dec 85 16:38:07 PST (Fri)
From: Tim Shimeall <tim@ICSD.UCI.EDU>
Let me start off by noting that I oppose nuclear war, and am deeply
concerned about the necessity of our country maintaining a nuclear
arsenal. But it IS a necessity. The argument has been made that
``There is nothing in this world worth risking the earth's
destruction.'' (Gwyn Dyer's "War") In my personal opinion,
this is false. I would not care to live, nor do I want my descendents
(if any) to live, in a country which lacks the freedoms of religion, speech,
press and assembly. This means that I think that freedom is the
sole commodity worth the destruction of the world, and if risking
the destruction of the world is the sole means by which freedom can
be defended -- so be it.
The cost of the "nothing worth" argument is truly terrible to consider.
The current US defense policy is based on MAD. Among other things,
MAD requires a constant willingness to use nuclear weapons if our
national interests are sufficiently infringed. If we believe that
``There is nothing in this world worth risking the earth's
destruction.'' then that willingness is axiomatically not present
and we've lost. Any power which has nuclear weapons, and
uses one or two on American cities to demonstrate their willingness
to use them can take the country over. No risk of nuclear winter--
one or two cities is well below the threshold, even if you believe
the studies. No risk of retaliation--America is too scared of
death to defend what previous generations died to preserve. In other
words, if the "nothing worth" attitude becomes prevalent we, the
people of the USA, have lost.
You've made the argument: ``There aren't any mass suicides in eastern
block countries.'' Quite true, but have you looked at the rate of
alcohol abuse there? How about the mass purges during the 1910's
and '20s to eliminate anyone with a reason to dislike the soviet
state? While these weren't mass suicides, they had the same purpose
in weeding out those who might feel THAT strongly about the soviets
coming to power. Even with all of these things, life in the Soviet
Union today is a vast improvement for its russian citizens over
life under the czars. This would not be true if the Soviets took
over the US. Should that happen, I might very well consider suicide
the lesser of two evils -- and I STRONGLY doubt I'd be alone in that
belief. For a small taste of the cost of freedom, consider the Vietnamese
boat people. If you've never talked with one I doubt you've a real
appreciation for the lengths people are willing to go for a small
chance of freedom.
I'm sure that my argument has holes in it, and I welcome conversation
on those holes--but please note that I've tried to avoid "ad hominum"
argument and hope that we can continue to do so.
Happy Holidays,
Tim
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Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 01:31:40 EST
From: wolit%mhuxd.UUCP at harvard.HARVARD.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Jastrow's Analogy
The comparison of the Star Wars battle management software and the
code that runs the US public phone system would be valid IF:
+ If each time someone got away with making a fraudulent credit card
call or got disconnected in mid-conversation, the effect on the
phone company were equivalent to losing a major city.
+ If all the software for all the nodes in the network, from the
local office to the intercity trunks, regardless of manufacturer,
could be tested only before the first customer actually used it,
and the entire system were cut in at once at full load, say on
Mother's Day.
+ If instead of blue boxes, sneaky college students had access to
(and incentive to use) weapons that would allow them to physically
disconnect large portions of the network.
+ If, rather than being crafted by a company known world-wide for
its quality assurance know-how, and motivated by lots of hungry
shareholders, the phone system were put together by Pentagon
bureaucrats who know they can always go back to Congress for
another dip into the till.
+ If, instead of controlling well-understood hardware, the software
had to be designed for a switching system based on technology that
hadn't been invented yet.
Jan Wolitzky, AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ; 201 582-2998; mhuxd!wolit
(Affiliation given for identification purposes only)
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Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 01:32:05 EST
From: Herb Lin <LIN@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Better Dead...
From: Tim Shimeall <tim at ICSD.UCI.EDU>
You've made the argument: ``There aren't any mass suicides in eastern
block countries.'' Quite true, but have you looked at the rate of
alcohol abuse there?
You addressed to me a copy of the message from which this is an
excerpt; I don't recall having said anything of the sort -- maybe
you're confusing me with someone else?
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End of Arms-Discussion Digest
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