ARMS-D-Request@MIT-MC.ARPA (Moderator) (01/11/86)
Arms-Discussion Digest Friday, January 10, 1986 8:06PM Volume 6, Issue 17.5 Today's Topics: See 17.1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Citizens Summit Date: 10 Jan 86 09:19:25 PST (Fri) From: foy@aero I questioned if anyone had seen the Citizens Summit. I was out of town and the mail piled up. This posting is primarily intended for those who saw it; those who think it was a farce, those who think that things like it serve no purpose. There has been considerable discussion on the net about governments lying. All governments, I believe, to a greater or less degree do not tell the truth. I think most of us can think of incidents when our government has not told the truth. If nothing else the the first official statement after the Gary Powers U2 indicent is an example. This leads me to wonder what source of information do I have regarding any foreign country that I can know is accurate. Certainly if I believe Jim McGrath I can't believe that which stems from my government. This is hard to accept but I must. Perhaps the media is a little better. However much of what they publish comes from the government, much of what they need to do to sell papers or get viewers is to portray conflict. Certainly the media is a proponent of capitalism, aren't we all, so how can they see communist countries objectively? My question is where can I get unbiased information about the "evil empire." Citizens Summit. The Citizens summit was an opportunity to see and hear Soviet people respond to people from the US. Three people in Seattle who had been to Russia spoke. Each of them said they were surprised about what they had seen, with the context that it was much better than they had been led to believe. One Vietnam Veteran equally condemned our actions there and the Soviet actions in Afghanistan. One person made a question statement about about the Soviets haveing to be afraid of going to a psychiatric hospital of Siberia if they dissented. The expressions on the faces of the Soviets, that were visable, was one of amusement. One Soviet, responding to a question about dissent and citizen influence on the government, mentioned the clean up of Lake Baikal. Donahue essentially pooh-poohed that. What do I make of all this. Very little. However it fits with what I read and hear from other relatively unbiased sources, which is that the Soviets are neither as good as their government and media claim them to be nor as bad as our government claims them to be. It fits with my experience with people of many varieties here and in many countries throughout the world including South America, Europe, and some of the satellite East European countries. Now don't interpret this as saying the Soviets are good we are bad. All I am saying is that they are not all black and we are not all white. All of my experience tells me that if we as a nation work for the things that we have in common and don't put all of our emphasis on trying to say they must become like us the more chance we have of finding a way of living together on this planet. If I were to rank goodness in nations I would probably put Switzerland at the top. They have a relatively high standard of living for a relatively high percentage of people. No bag ladies. No slave laborers. They are relatively tolerant of diversity. Four? national languages. They are relatively secure without threatening anyone else, not as some may think because of their geography near as much as because of their national approach to defense. They have taken a stance that explicitly eliminates threats to other nations while at the same time explititly states to other nations that they would be wise to skip Switzerland in their national squabbles. Any comments on better ways of getting factual information about other nations, than going there oneself or observing and listening to other people with the minimum axes to grind who have been there? ------------------------------ Date: 1986 January 10 13:30:01 PST (=GMT-8hr) From: Robert Elton Maas <REM@IMSSS> (this host known locally only) Subject:"war is obsolete" vs. "S&M is obsolete" Reply-to: REM%IMSSS@SU-SCORE.ARPA (MF for IMSSS.STANFORD.EDU) BN> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 15:38:04 EST BN> From: Bruce Nevin <bnevin@bbncch.ARPA> BN> Subject: Re: cybernetic process (RE "WAR IS OBSOLETE") BN> Someone commented that warfare will always be potential human behavior. BN> So will cannibalism, human sacrifice, sado-masochistic practices, and BN> much else. At present, only small minorities of our culture practice BN> these horrors (I believe that all three occur in the United States BN> today), and I think none of us is too worried about being a victim. I BN> would like to see warfare reduced to the same degree of likelihood, ... You seem to be saying that sado-machochistic practices are obsolete. I don't think they are. Although perhaps only a small minority actually participate in them, a lot of people think about them and consider them and participate in them in tiny ways sometimes not consciously. War seems to be in the same state already, only a small minority of people actually carry out warfare (among USA citizens: the radical branch of the weathermen back in the late 60's, top echelons of organized crime this entire century, occasional tiny groups, CIA-sponsored groups, and small groups of regular military when called upon; in middle-east nations the minority is a bit larger). The rest of our society merely prepares for war and funds the preparation (and against our will happens to also fund the tiny actual warring that goes on). So how can you say as you seem to be saying that we already accept sado-machochism as obsolete but still need to accept that war is obsolete? The problem to me seems to be that whereas sado-machochism is stable, a few people practicing it doesn't much hurt the rest of us, war is unstable, one mistake in the wrong place and all-out war flares up through the actions of some tiny fraction of our citizeny but affecting everyone fatally. Also I don't think S&M is obsolete at all. Although few practice it much, it's quite popular. ------------------------------ End of Arms-Discussion Digest *****************************