pugh@topaz.ARPA (07/22/85)
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
I think this discussion of "What aliens would come to Earth for" brings a
number of very good points to light that need to be considered. I like it
primarily for its reverse question "Why would we leave Earth?"
First of all, the idea of water and slaves seems to be fairly absurd, although
I do like the artistic servitude concept. Sort of like Niven's Thrints and
their Tnuctip slaves. The Thrints were so used to controlling people that
they forgot how to think and *had* to have the Tnuctips do it. But all good
things must come to an end.
Pournelle also wrote a very plausible slavery idea in Jannisaries and the
sequel Clan And Crown where the aliens were smuggling drugs. They snag some
humans and plant them on a planet saying, "We'll be back in a year, have the
drugs ready." The stories are very well thought out. Quite enjoyable. I'm
hoping for a third book.
At any rate, the concept of aliens being as far ahead of us as we are to an ape
is very logical. It is unlikely that any race as unstable as we seem to be
would make it into space for any significant length of time. And even if we
did it would probably be militaristic and quite dominating (at least if we
went now it would be). I think we need to grow up a bit first.
The point is that there are no short term goals in space. If it takes a year
to get to Mars then you can forget just about every short term profit beyond
the moon. Granted that mining will have some benefit, but there is some work
to be done first. Another long term project.
Now, what long term projects would be useful to a space faring race? Consider
the fact that this planet is doomed. It will not last forever. At the rate
we are polluting it and using up its resources, it may not last another
century. Where will mankind go? My idea is to get all the hazardous industries
off planet. Anything that could seriously jepordize the ecology should be
isolated from it. Even so that is merely a postponement of the inevitable.
The planet will die. So will the sun, and most likely everything else. If
Mankind is to survive the destruction of this solar system, and even, dare we
think it, the next big bang, he will need to be able to live in space. For
a *long* time. We will only be able to find habitable planets for so long.
Granted that this requires some changes. We need to beat the lightspeed
barrier. We need to get a global thought pattern going. Mankind needs to
consider the race instead of the individual (although not to the individual's
exclusion). We need to think of the future instead of the present or we
will all be revealed as the hedonistic little apes that we are.
Why would aliens come to visit? What could they want with us? They can
get the tv from space, and hopefully they would have something better. All the
elements we have can be found elsewhere. And we are dangerous!
Consider yourself as a starship captain. Consider that a nuke could probably
blow a hole in just about ANYTHING. The only way I would land is if I was
quick and hidden, or had an entire invasion force. And why in the galaxy would
anyone take Earth over? Sure it's a nice place, but heck, we've torn the place
up like the squatters we are. If they leave us alone, chances are we will
destroy ourselves. Nope, aliens will play hit and run (like Doug Adams saying
that alien teenagers buzz the planet for fun) or they won't bother.
So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If Mankind is
to survive, we must take to the stars. There is nowhere else to go. It may
be viewed as running from one problem into another, but it is the only choice,
aside from racial suicide. Does anyone want to be a dinosaur?
Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpaCAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA (07/29/85)
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA> The title of Jon Pugh's message "Why Leave Home At All" is exactly the question I throw back into the ring. The tone of his message is one I have heard before (and may once have believed myself) but one which I find increasingly astonishing and a bit annoying. His premise is best summarized in his closing paragraph: > So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If > Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars. There is nowhere > else to go. It may be viewed as running from one problem into > another, but it is the only choice, aside from racial suicide. Does > anyone want to be a dinosaur? Petty ball of dirt? Please read Lewis Thomas's "Lives of the Cell" for an outlook which might dilute those sentiments. The view that we must cut our losses, count the Earth as a "throw-away", and get off planet as soon as possible to insure our racial survival is an attitude that I would not want to see propagated into space had I the power to stop it. If we can't make it work on this petty ball of dirt, folks, it's not going to be any easier on another dirt clod around some other star or in some RingWorld. When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the people we already have (why talk about racial survival if the ones alive right now are not counted priceless?) and can establish a homeostasis on this ball of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would I say we had earned the right to leave. Ron Cain cain@sri-ai -------
crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) (07/30/85)
In article <2989@topaz.ARPA> CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA writes: >From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA> > > > When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the >people we already have (why talk about racial survival if the ones alive >right now are not counted priceless?) and can establish a homeostasis on >this ball of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would >I say we had earned the right to leave. > > Ron Cain Fine. *You* stay, I'll go. -- Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (08/01/85)
In article <6040@duke.UUCP> crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >> When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the >>people we already have (why talk about racial survival if the ones alive >>right now are not counted priceless?) and can establish a homeostasis on >>this ball of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would >>I say we had earned the right to leave. I would point out that the kind of energy needed for serious interstellar travel is probably about comparable to that needed to support the rest of the globe in the US lifestyle-- probably even more. I doubt that there is the political will to so apply it though; we will almost certainly try space travel first. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (08/02/85)
<Both quoted articles cut severely> Jon Pugh: >> So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If >> Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars. Ron Cain: > When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the >people we already have and can establish a homeostasis on >this ball of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would >I say we had earned the right to leave. I find both these attitudes equally annoying. Of course we can survive here. And of course we can go to the stars. And we should do both. By whose standards do we have to "earn" a right to leave? Our own behavior and ideals are the only standards we have. If we run into someone out there with other standards, then we can talk about how much right we have to leave. If we wait for utopia first, we will wait forever.