WorkS-Request@RED.RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Steiner, The Moderator) (10/30/85)
WORKS Digest Tuesday, 29 Oct 1985 Volume 5 : Issue 36
Today's Topics:
Queries - Programmer Productivity and Lisp Machines &
National's ICM3216 & 68020 Clock Rate Query,
Response to Queries - 68020 Clock Rate Query (2 msgs) &
Berkeley Smalltalk on Sun 2/50,
Hardware - CMU 3M Machine & Encoding Mouse Data,
Call For Papers - Office Information Systems '86 (Revised)
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From: warren@ihwpt.UUCP (warren montgomery)
Subject: Any data on programmer productivity and lisp machines?
Date: 18 Oct 85 17:58:36 GMT
I am looking for data on software development productivity while
doing development on lisp machine versus doing equivalent development
on a conventional time-shared system. The comparison I am looking at
is something like comparing Franz lisp + the needed "generic"
development tools (editors, shells, etc), on a Unix* system, versus
the integrated environment presented by the Symbolics* workstation.
I know that this has been a popular subject on the net in the past,
but I haven't seen much authoritative data. Any sound data I can
collect has the potential to influence purchase decisions throughout
AT&T, so if you have the evidence, now is your chance to present it.
I would be particularly interested in published material with hard
numbers.
*Unix is a Trademark of AT&T
*Symbolics is a Trademark of Symbolics, inc.
--
Warren Montgomery, ihesa!warren
------------------------------
From: jchapman@watcgl.UUCP (john chapman)
Subject: comments on, users of, ICM3216??
Date: 25 Oct 85 14:35:47 GMT
I'm considering buying one of National's ICM3216 32016 processor and
memory board sets and would appreciate any comments any can give me
about them or the 32016 (in general) and unix ports for them. e.g.
- early versions of the 32016 were reportedly buggy is this still
true?
- if you have the ICM3216, what do you think of it (design,
construction, reliability)
- National offers sys V - does anyone have comments as to the quality
of the port?
- National apparently also offers 4.xbsd under the guise of Genix 4.x
does anyone have this up and running and is it a good port? Will
National sell it to end users (it's not mentioned in the ICM3216
information packet)?
- how does your 32016 system compare to say a 68010 system (about
the same power, more, less?)?
I would really appreciate any comments anyone has to offer, either
here or by e-mailing me - I will post a summary if I get any
interesting comments.
Thanks a lot and in advance,
john chapman jchapman@watcgl
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From: wb@zeta.UUCP (Bill Beblo)
Subject: 68020 clock rate query
Date: 19 Oct 85 05:18:41 GMT
I am currently in the process of looking rather closely at some of
the "workstations" being offered by companies such as Sun, Apollo,
Masscomp, Integrated Solutions, etc. Most of these vendors offer a
system based on the 68020 chip. Some of the vendors claim their
68020 is clocked at 16.67MHz while others claim 12MHz. Although I
realize that a faster clock rate in itself does not guarantee better
throughput, an interesting dispute has developed regarding two of
these vendors. Vendor A (16.67MHz clock) claims they have made
special arrangements with Motorola and are paying a premium for 68020
chips certified by Motorola at 16.67MHz. Vendor B (12MHz clock)
claims that Motorola is not currently certifying the 68020 at
16.67MHz and that Vendor A is in reality getting 12MHz chips from
Motorola, but using only those chips which they can successfully push
to run at 16.67MHz.
I tend to believe that since the clock rate of 16.67MHz is printed on
Vendor A's glossy brochure they are telling the truth, but Vendor B's
claim does not seem absurd. I'm not an Electrical Engineer so I'm
turning to the net for answers/opinions. A reply from a qualified
party at Motorola would also be appreciated.
Bill Beblo
Bell Communications Research
290 W. Mt. Pleasant Ave. Rm 1B-112
Livingston, New Jersey 07039
(201) 740-4421
------------------------------
From: pavlov@hscfvax.UUCP (840033@G.Pavlov)
Subject: Re: 68020 clock rate query
Date: 21 Oct 85 08:32:31 GMT
Hewlett_Packard has released a workstation (HP9000 series 300)that
utilizes a 16.67 68020 chip. Since HP is very conservative re
hardware, I think that the question about "official" vs "unofficial"
releases of the chip are moot.
g.pavlov, FSTRF, Amherst N.Y.
------------------------------
From: chip@cadsys.UUCP (Chip Krauskopf)
Subject: Re: 68020 clock rate query
Date: 22 Oct 85 20:30:09 GMT
The testing of microprocessors is a very interesting subject. To be
certified at a given speed the chip must perform at a given frequency
and meet all the stated specs. across a wide temperature range. It
is one thing for the part to work at room temp, but high temp is
another. I would find it very surprising for a chip company to sell
parts that don't pass there full test set at some speed as if they
did. Likewise, if they have 16MHz parts, I would think they would
sell them as such! The only way I know to "push" a non-full spec.
chip is to cool it and/or run at higher voltage.
--
Chip Krauskopf; 386 Design Team, Intel, Santa Clara, Ca.
{pur-ee,hplabs,amd,scquaxd,dual,qantel}!intelca!cadsys!chip
N.B. The views above are personal and may not represent those of
Intel.
------------------------------
From: de@dcl-cs.UUCP (Dave England)
Subject: Re: Problem with Berkeley Smalltalk on SUN 2/50
Date: 24 Oct 85 10:03:03 GMT
Thanks for the replies to my article. It appears our problem is the
lack of bs.tool on our distribution tape. We'll enquire at Berkeley
to get hold of it.
"Once again the net triumphs over the evil of ignorance"
--
UUCP : ..!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!de ARPA : de%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET : de@uk.ac.lancs.comp PHONE : +44 524 65201 Ext. 4586
POST : Univ. of Lancaster, Dept of Computing, Lancaster LA1 2YR, UK.
PROJECT: Alvey ECLIPSE User Interface
------------------------------
From: jg@mit-eddie.UUCP (Jim Gettys)
Subject: Re: info on CMU 3M Machine (really X window system)
Date: 16 Oct 85 02:54:57 GMT
In article <208@ius2.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA
(Ralph Hyre) writes:
>MIT's project Athena is using mostly DEC hardware, (MicroVaxes,
>750's with VS-1000 graphics terminals). They're supporting the CMU
>window manager calls as well as their own. (This will be a big win,
>especially if the compatibility is extended to other components of
>the systems. Unfortunately MIT's idea is to provide remote services
>through a remote procedure call (rpc) interface, while CMU is using
>sockets. Both systems use Berkeley 4.2 Unix.)
>
To correct some missimpressions left by Ralph's Article:
1) Our window system (X) uses a protocol ON TOP of a stream, similar
in principle to Andrew, the ITC CMU window system. It currently runs
over TCP, though we ran it over a DECNET stream one day for
interest's sake. We support a fully heirarchical (sub)window system,
and allow overlapping windows. X is considerably more powerful than
Andrew, but we have not the applications code that Andrew does.
2) X currently runs on VS100 displays, the VS 2 (uVaxII with QVSS)
workstation and a color display. Other ports are in progress. The
client programs (since X is a formal network server) have been ported
to a Sun and will talk to a Vax display, but the X server has not
been ported to the Sun (where most of the work lies; we do not have
the manpower to put into it here). (Any suckers, ah, I meant
volunteers out there?)
3) The Andrew emulation package is not finished, and I for one will
not count my emulators before programs run under them. No promises
as to if/when it will be done. We hope "soon"....
4) the Vs100 implementation of X is available from MIT at nominal
($100) charge, no license (additional to a Berkeley licence) is
required, and X will be on the 4.3 tape. An incomplete VS2
implementation is also on the MIT distribution (soon to be finished
as soon as the "last bug" is found). For information on how to get a
distribution, send mail to "xrequest@athena.mit.edu"
(xrequest@mit-athena.arpa).
Jim Gettys
MIT/Project Athena
Digital Equipment Corporation
jg@athena.mit.edu (jg@mit-athena.arpa).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 85 05:52:33 EDT
From: jqj@CU-ARPA.CS.CORNELL.EDU (J.Q. Johnson)
To: INFO-TERMS@mit-mc.arpa, net-micro-pc@GVAX.CS.CORNELL.EDU
Subject: information on serialized mouse data wanted
Cc: INFO-BITGRAPH@mit-mc.arpa
When using a workstation with a mouse to emulate a terminal, one
problem is how to send mouse-position data inband to the host. This
is important, for example, if you want to use the mouse with a
host-based editor like Emacs that is designed for use with
traditional character-oriented crt terminals. My question: has any
standard arisen for encoding such mouse data?
One possibility, of course, is to transmit a cursor-position sequence
(if the emulation is ANSI standard, that's ESC [ <line> ; <row> R ),
but one frequently wants to have the mouse cursor be independent of
the display cursor, so this is a bad choice. A variation on this
theme is to send a sequence of relative motion command, as if the
user had pressed arrow keys. Another (even uglier) possibility is to
second-guess why the host application program wants to know the mouse
cursor; for example, in Interlisp-D a click of the mouse sends a
sequence of Emacs commands (^A, ^P, ^N, ^F, etc.) to move the typein
point to match the mouse position.
Another possibility, which I prefer, is that used on the BBN Bitgraph
-- to send a special command sequence to report on mouse position and
status (e.g. buttons). For BBN, that sequence is ESC : 2 ; <x> ; <y>
; <flags> c where x and y are window- or screen-relative pixel
coordinates, and flags encodes such things as which mouse button was
pressed, or whether x and y represent deltas from the previous mouse
position. The Bitgraph may be programmed to send status reports at
timed intervals (to allow host tracking), on button events, on
motion, etc.
I would like to see some standard including these features and others
(e.g. status reports when the mouse enters a host-settable hotzone or
crosses a boundary such as a window edge, position reporting in
either pixel or character units, and perhaps support for multiple or
3d pointing devices). Ideally, this would become an extension to
X3.64.
Is such a standard unreasonable? Are there any de facto standards
now?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 85 11:33 EST
From: Hewitt@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: REVISED call for papers: OIS-86
******************* C A L L F O R P A P E R S
* * ----------------------------------------------
* * Third ACM Conference On
* * OFFICE INFORMATION SYSTEMS
* OIS-86 *
* * October 6-8, 1986
* * Biltmore Plaza Hotel
* * Providence, RI
******************* ------------------------------------------------
General Chair: Carl Hewitt, Topics appropriate for this
MIT conference include (but are not
restricted to) the following as
Program Chair: Stanley Zdonik, they relate to OIS:
Brown University
Technologies including Display,
Treasurer: Gerald Barber, Voice, Telecommunications,
Gold Hill Computers Print, etc.
Local Arrangements: Andrea Skarra, Human Interfaces
Brown University
Deployment and Evaluation
An interdisciplinary conference on
issues relating to office System Design and Construction
information systems (OIS) sponsored
by ACM/SIGOA in cooperation with Goals and Values
Brown University and the MIT
Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. Distributed Services and
Submissions from the following Applications
fields are solicited:
Knowledge Bases and Reasoning
Anthropology
Artificial Intelligence Distributed Services and
Cognitive Science Applications
Computer Science
Economics Indicators and Models
Management Science
Psychology Needs and Organizational
Sociology Factors
Impact of Computer Integrated
Manufacturing
The following have confirmed their membership on the program
committee:
Guiseppe Attardi Ray Panko
University of Pisa University of Hawaii
James Bair Robert Rosin
Hewlett Packard Syntrex
Gerald Barber Erik Sandewall
Gold Hill Computers Linkoping University
Peter de Jong Walt Scacci
MIT USC
Irene Greif Andrea Skarra
MIT Brown University
Sidney Harris Susan Leigh Star
Georgia State University Tremont Research Institute
Carl Hewitt Luc Steels
MIT University of Brussels
Heinz Klein Sigfried Treu
SUNY University of Pittsburgh
Fred Lochovsky Dionysis Tsichritzis
University of Toronto University of Geneva
Fanya Montalvo Eleanor Wynn
MIT Brandon Interscience
Naja Naffah Aki Yonezawa
Bull Transac Tokyo Institute of Technology
Margrethe Olson Stanley Zdonik
NYU Brown University
The invited keynote speaker is Professor J.C.R. Licklider of MIT.
Unpublished papers of up to 5000 words (20 double-spaced pages) are
sought. The first page of each paper must include the following
information: title, the author's name, affiliations, complete mailing
address, telephone number and electronic mail address where
applicable, a maximum 150-word abstract of the paper, and up to five
keywords (important for the correct classification of the paper). If
there are multiple authors, please indicate who will present the
paper at OIS-86 if the paper is accepted. Proceeedings will be
distributed at the conference and will later be available from ACM.
Selected papers will be published in the ACM Transactions on Office
Information Systems.
Please send eight (8) copies of the paper to:
Prof. Stan Zdonick
OIS-86 Program Chair
Computer Science Department
Brown University
P.O. Box 1910
Providence, RI 02912
DIRECT INQUIRIES TO: Margaret H. Franchi (401) 863-1839.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT DATES
Deadline for Paper Submission: February 1, 1986
Notification of Acceptance: April 30, 1986
Deadline for Final Camera-Ready Copy: July 1, 1986
Conference Dates: October 6-8, 1986
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End of WORKS Digest
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