mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA (07/23/85)
Something has been bothering me about the psychology of Niven's
human-origin Protectors. To remind people: human-origin Protectors
are humans infected with a certain virus. There are a few minor
physical changes, like almost unlimited life. The mental changes are
superintelligence and a desire to protect his/her relatives and/or
humanity in general.
However, consider two sets of human protectors mentioned in the Known
Space series:
Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of the
hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the population of
Home (several million people). Many of these people killed are their
relatives. They do this to preserve humanity in general in the long
term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order of 20 billion people).
They seem to have no major qualms about this.
Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the
solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent destruction.
Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a few years, but she
refrains because using the system would kill 5% of the population.
So what gives? Is killing a few million relatives OK but killing a few
trillion hominids not? Is the kill-to-saved ratio the correct parameter
to consider? I don't understand. Any speculation?
------------------
Tim McDaniel; CSRD at the Silicon Prairie
(Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the University
of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign)
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Bitnet: MCDANIEL@UIUCVMDjohn@hp-pcd.UUCP (john) (07/29/85)
<<< < < Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of the < hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the population of < Home (several million people). Many of these people killed are their < relatives. They do this to preserve humanity in general in the long < term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order of 20 billion people). < They seem to have no major qualms about this. < They knew about the other ships from Pak that were approaching and did that to prevent total annilhilation. < Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the < solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent destruction. < Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a few years, but she < refrains because using the system would kill 5% of the population. Niven mentioned something about another protector besides Teela that would try and move the Ringworld inhabitants. Assuming that was possible then the greatest number could be saved by not saving Ringworld. Another explaination could be that Protectors view morality in a different light than we do. We tend to believe that failing to save a life is sometimes the same as murder. A protector may feel that death due to Ringworlds destruction was natural and would not justify intentional murder to prevent. You must remember that Teela was compelled by instinct that contradicted what her intelligence told her to do. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john
rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (08/08/85)
From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life. What Niven also didn't cover in Ringworld Engineers was that not saving the Ringworld would be the same as killing 3E13 hominids more surely than using the meteor defense to save the ringworld -- people might survivie the radiation, but wouldn't possibly survive the sun (or shadow squares, or whatever). So I suppose the canonical answer of poetic license is it. PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth, which was much smaller. Robert^Z
okie@ihuxi.UUCP (Cobb) (08/09/85)
> From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU > > Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry > about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life. Can we be certain of that? After all, one of Brennan's daughters was named Estelle... and Estelle Randall (Roy Truesdales' "Greatly 'Stelle") became a *very* rich woman. If that isn't looking out for your bloodline, I don't know what is. Of course, we don't *know* that Brennan did anything, but... we know that Roy is a relative through Estelle. I just extrapolated a bit from those few facts. One point about protector psychology I think we've been overlooking -- Pak protectors start out as breeders which (inferred from the book) have less intelligence than Earth humans. Perhaps they *have* to be protected. Brennan, coming into the protector stage with years of human intelligence behind him, wouldn't react the same way. He has the inbred urge to protect his bloodline, but it's tempered by his human genetic structure and he can probably broaden it to include everyone of his race. He instinctively understands that humans don't need the same kind of protector that Pak breeders do? Just a thought. > PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld > being built? It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth, > which was much smaller. Try this possible scenario on for size. At the time that Phsthpok was searching the library, the Pak didn't know about the core explosion. According to Brennan, that was one possible reason for the Pak fleet coming to Earth. So, assume that one fleet takes out towards Earth -- and another sets out to build the Ringworld. This scenario depends on the length of the interval between Brennan's day and Louis Wu's... and how long ago the Pak started for Earth... does this seem reasonable? B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie "You scream and you leap. Great."
SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA (08/11/85)
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry
about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life.
Of course he worried about his own bloodline. *All* of his decendents
(except Truesdale) were in Sol system. That's why he didn't even tell
the UN and the Belt what was going on. Even Truesdale's kid was in
Sol system. And Brennan knew damned well how old Truesdale was, so he
knew that Truesdale would make it to Protector ok. Of course, *after*
Truesdale became a Protector he was at risk, but that's what
Protectors are for, yes? And there can't be an instinct/drive in the
original Tree-Of-Life against letting your decendants become
Protectors, for obvious reasons. Even so, Brennan was worried sick
about Truesdale, if you remember -- he actually made some irrational
decisions, he was so upset, and it cost him his life.
PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld
being built? It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth,
which was much smaller.
Now, I ask you, if you were a Protector paranoid to build something
like the ringworld, would you be silly enough to leave traces to be
found by the first family that decides it wants a *lot* of elbow room?
--Rob
-------mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA (08/11/85)
/* Written 12:14 pm Aug 8, 1985 by rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU in uiucdcsb:net.sf-lovers */ PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth, which was much smaller. /* End of text from uiucdcsb:net.sf-lovers */ The Earth colony was failing; the protectors there knew they were dying; they were worried (well, as worried as protectors get) about their charges. It was possible that protectors would come with descendents and wipe out the resident breeders, but it was unlikely, as they were too busy staying alive back home: far more likely that childless protectors would research the problem and come out. Ringworld was a going enterprise, and reasonably successful -- but as fragile as a planet (c. f. Canyon, Home, today's Earth. If you can come all the way from the galactic core, you can get enough energy to drop a 20km wide asteroid on a planet, and settle a few centuries later.) Why call attention to themselves?
markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) (08/13/85)
Could someone either repost or mail me the outline of the fictious Niven
novel "Up in Flames". This the outline Niven wrote for a novel (He has said
he will never write it) that explains how almost everything we know about
the background of the "Known Space" series (core explosion, slavers etc.)
is a lie.
THNX
Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb