dean@A.PSY.CMU.EDU (randall w. dean) (12/04/85)
Has anyone written an archiving system for VMS that they are willing to share? I'm looking for something along the lines of TOPS-20's Migrate and Retrieve. I'll post summary if anyone is interested. Randall W. Dean Dean@a.psy.cmu.edu
dean@A.PSY.CMU.EDU (randall w. dean) (01/06/86)
A number of weeks ago, I posted to see if anyone had a VMS file archiving system along the lines of the TOPS20 Migrate/Retrieve. A number of people sent mail expressing interest in this information, but no one has sent any pointers to such software. Any pointers would still be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Randall Dean Carnegie-Mellon University Dean@a.psy.cmu.edu
zar%Xhmeia@CIT-HAMLET.ARPA (01/07/86)
I know of one written at JPL I can get my hands on, but it only archives text files (I think). It works with the same idea BACKUP does. In fact, why don't you use BACKUP... $ BACKUP/LOG files-to-archive archive-name/SAVE where the archive-name can be anything (file on a disk, or tape, or what- ever...). Send me more mail if you have questions... From The Great Zar
J.R.COWIE%edinburgh.ac.uk@CS.UCL.AC.UK (01/08/86)
We are also looking for a good archiver at the University of Strathclyde
i.e. users are unaware of tape handling, but in control of archiving
and retrieving data when they want to and providing some kind of directory
of what they have in their archive. Also possibly automatic archiving
for files over certain time limits.
The solution offered by zar would be ok if you only had a few users,
but it is totally unworkable when you have hundreds.
Jim Cowie
University of Strathclyde
Glasgow
Message-ID: <08 Jan 86 15:52:43 gmt 210230@BUSH>
(Message 19)
Subject: archiving
From: Damerell@ucl-cs Wed, 4 Apr 84 12:15:49 GMT
To: j.r.cowie@rco, powell@arpa.dec-marlboro, muslin@arpa.dec-marlboro,
jiml@arpa.su-score, weber@arpa.usc-isib, mooret.acf1@arpa.nyu-acf2,
tihor@arpa.nyu-cmcl1, doug@arpa.jpl-vlsi, billw@arpa.sri-kl
Via: 2972 ; (to RCO) 04 Apr 84 14:30:40 bst
Via: UCL-CS ; (to RCO) 04 Apr 84 14:14:27 bst
Msg ID: <sent 4 Apr 84 12:15:49 GMT via UCL-CS>
FROM: DAMERELL at UCL-CS
This is a digest of responses to my request about file-archiving for VMS, I
have tried to condense it without distorting anyone.....
I have commented in brackets...
.
1. REQUESTS for information.......
From: "J.R.Cowie" <J.R.Cowie%rco@ucl-cs>
I am particularly interested in archivers which use the BACKUP utility
to produce the archive tapes.
(damerell: The full stops in this name are significant; I tried to send
to "JRCowie" & it failed...)
From: "Reed B. Powell" <POWELL@arpa.dec-marlboro>
From: Victor Muslin <MUSLIN@arpa.dec-marlboro>
From: Jim Lewinson <x.Jiml@[36.40.0.209]>
Reply-To: Jiml@arpa.su-score
It's going to be real hard to do given the limited amount of info that
can be stored in the FDB for a file. Let me know if you do find anything,
however.
Jim
2. SI Archiver.....
From: John Weber <WEBER@arpa.usc-isib>
We have been using an archiver produced by Strategic Information, 80
Blanchard Rd., Burlington, MA 01803. Being used to the TOPS-20 archiver we
were a little disappointed. Forced migration is not as automatic, but can be
implemented. All the features you mention are there, however.
From: "Terry C. Moore" <MOORET.ACF1@arpa.nyu-acf2>
We have looked at the manuals, but have no practical experience with the
thing. Try calling them (617-273-5500) and requesting documentation.
From: Stephen Tihor <TIHOR@arpa.nyu-cmcl1>
We have looked at SI Archive repeatedly over the last year or so and
have finally decied that although it seems to be a good product with
all the desired functionality: (1) their archive format is not great,
your real protection is that they cut two copies of each tape. (2)
they don't have a goos tape compression facility to handle partially
expired archive tapes.
Finally since we can do all this with VMS BACKUP and some straightforwards
command files we have decided not to get it for a single major system
backup. Perhaps later this year when the release multiple archive
support so that individual groups that want this facility can use it
without the central systems group being responsible for it or
getting into each others pockets.
3. So what about DEC themselves....
From: Doug Freyburger <DOUG@arpa.jpl-vax>
You are asking for TOPS-20 functionality from an operating system produced and
maintained by DEC. Good luck. Anyways, the simplest way would be to
introduce a new type of file, let's say ".ARC". Entries in it in addition to
the ".DIR" file are scheduled to be reaped, entries the just the ".ARC" file
are archived, and there is a "please recover" queue just like the batch or
print queues. This requires two changes to the File-ACP, in the the
"directory not found" and "file not found" errors to check the ".ARC" file.
Also a REAPER and UNREAPER need to be written.
It sounds so simple that maybe if all of DECUS asked for it, we should get it.
Oh, by the way, the real reason I replied to your message was the leading
whitespace.
(DAMERELL: that was a bug in our local system)
From: BILLW@SRI-KL
the VMS developers dont seem to think this is useful. It was a very sore
point at the last decus at one of the 10/20 to VMS "integration" sessions
that when a user complained that there was no VMS archive facility, the
responise of the resident VMS wizzard was essentially "Whats archiving?"
( Damerell: that response is not absolutely stupid. I certainly didnt have
any idea what archiving was until the local staff told me. Also I suppose
that from DEC's point of view, it's better if we cant archive files properly
as we then have to spend much more money on big discs!)WOLF@BBNG.ARPA (Jerry Wolf) (01/20/86)
I want to add a couple of comments to the exchanges on archiving under VMS -- sorry I dodn't get around to it last week, when it'd have been more timely. 1. "Archiving" appears to mean different things to different people, and you need to be sure of the other guy's interpretation. To me (and to TOPS-20 veterans), it means for the user to be able to specify that a file is to be moved off-line (somehow), but don't bother me with the details; at a later time, user can learn what files are offline and request files to be retrieved. This all is possible without consulting operations staff or knowing which tape(s) or saveset names are involved. To some others, (Unix background, I think), "archiving" seems to mean just to copying files to offline media, to free up disk space. In this case, user needs to know what tapes, savesets, etc. are involved, so if he wants something back, he'll know where it is. (Of course, BACKUP does all this. I, and obviously others, want something more on the TOPS-20 level.) 2. I've looked at the documentation for Strategic Information's ARCHIVER, which was mentioned earlier. At least as of about a year ago, it seemed to do a lot of the TOPS-20 kind of thing. For our use, however, it had a BIG drawback -- it's strictly a "personal" archiver. User can archive only files he OWNS and he can see (find in the online database and request retrieval for) only files that he OWNS. This is fine, but severely limiting for a group of users sharing files. I've suggested to SI that a more general concept that follows the VMS protection mechanism (e.g., let user archive files he has write or delete access to, and let user see and retrieve files he has read access to) would be just the ticket, but so far, they don't seem to have acted on that. Other comments were on ARCHIVER's own, non-BACKUP tape format. They claimed that theirs is as "good" (from the point of view of error protection), but that it works 8-10 times faster than BACKUP, and that was the motivation for doing it that way. If you push them, they'll reveal their tape format. I admit I'd be more comfortable with tapes that BACKUP could read in a pinch. Another comment said they lacked a "merge" facility for copying archive tapes, flushing files that were no longer useful. The ARCHIVER 1.7 announcement, Jan. '85, says they now have this; I know no more details, however. Naturally, I'd also appreciate learning of a product that worked more like TOPS-20. ARCHIVER seems almost, but not quite as good as I'd like. Cheers, Jerry Wolf BBN Laboratories
INGERSOLL@ISI-VLSIH.ARPA (Steve Ingersoll) (01/24/86)
More comments on Strategic Information's Archiver: On TOPS-20 the archiver will place information about files it has archived into the directory that the file came. Under the SI archiver it places this information in one file. If you have to retrieve a file using the SI archiver you may have to wait a long time. SI's Archiver may be limited to archiving only 99999 file since they assign a number to each archive file and the number is only 5 digits large. I am not sure about this information but no one at Strategic Information could say otherwise. As of version 1.8 of archiver (July 1985) you can archive a file that is not owned by you, but you must have read access to the file. Steve -------