bnw@crash.UUCP (08/07/85)
From: <crash!bnw@Nosc> edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) writes: >Ewoks?, be serious. It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that >this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy >market. They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute >noises, walked funny and had adorable skittish mannerisms otherwise >skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them up et al. Happily, I am told I am blessed with more than half-a-brain, so I can safely go ahead and disagree. I don't doubt that the aftermarket possibilities of the Ewoks had occurred to Lucas and company when they developed them for the film. But I do feel that Mr. ALbrecht has gone too far in condemning them as a reasonable concept. There has been much speculation about the ability of little Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so some of the item seen would have been built; another idea presented by someone here was that the Storm- troopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting back. Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater capability than they have been credited with. I think there has been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any possibility of heavy work quickly. I submit, however, that four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the stripped log. Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile restrained by a keystone-type lever. The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic. They have learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal structure in what does not appear to be a nomadic society. Moreover, they have had some exposure to the modern technology of the Empire. None of the activity attributed to them would be beyond a humanoid culture at the same stage of development. It is anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same capabilities. The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies would have become had a non-interference directive kept them uncontaminated by man. Two specifics: >. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them >up et al. This isn't realistic belief. If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks in front of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and behind are filling me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as dead as any Ewoks I shoot. >Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a serious >character which is to give storm troopers any competition. This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels. If Mr. Albrecht read them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't serious characters or were capable of little beyond "yeeking" and "smokko", then he missed a very great deal. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (08/09/85)
In article <3158@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> bnw@crash.UUCP writes: > There has been much speculation about the ability of little Ewoks to >produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would agree with those >who suggest that this is a hunting society, so some of the item seen would >have been built; another idea presented by someone here was that the Storm- >troopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had >already been fighting back. > Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater capability than >they have been credited with. I think there has been an erroneous tendency >to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any possibility of heavy work quickly. >I submit, however, that four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, >and fifty Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the >stripped log. Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile >restrained by a keystone-type lever. My doubts that the Ewoks could have prepared their defenses as quickly as they did were not based on denigrating their physical characteristics. Let me clarify by stating that I don't think a group of humans at the same cultural level could have built those defenses in less than a few weeks, either. There are several problems with a faster schedule. First, note that there must have been more defenses which were not triggered in the movie. The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the installation in any direction, unless they were to rely on really incredible luck. Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to fighting the Imperials. I do not think such a variety could have been invented overnight; and even if invented, relatively few craftsmen can make a new invention accurately the first time. There is a learning curve involved. This is especially true for group activities. Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some of these things with primitive tools. Consider medieval siege engines, which took weeks to build with better tools. A pile of logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling quickly in the proper direction when released. I would expect a modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right.
dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (08/12/85)
> There has been much speculation about the ability of little Ewoks to > produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would agree with those > who suggest that this is a hunting society, so some of the item seen would > have been built; another idea presented by someone here was that the Storm- > troopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had > already been fighting back. > Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater capability than > they have been credited with. I think there has been an erroneous tendency > to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any possibility of heavy work quickly. > I submit, however, that four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, > and fifty Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the > stripped log. Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile > restrained by a keystone-type lever. > The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic. They have > learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal structure in > what does not appear to be a nomadic society. Moreover, they have had some > exposure to the modern technology of the Empire. None of the activity > attributed to them would be beyond a humanoid culture at the same stage of > development. It is anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same > capabilities. The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies would have > become had a non-interference directive kept them uncontaminated by man. (Place rasberry here) Rubbish!, spare me a load of rationalization. I don't really give a rip wether their stage of development could make them serious competitors or not. They were chosen by a human to emphasize characteristics we consider "cute". This does not in my mind aid the plot, it keeps us from taking them seriously just like cartoonization keeps people from taking bears seriously (which are certainly serious creatures) and gets some of them hurt. The point is that this was vastly detrimental to the plot which would have been much better if he had used characters we could have taken seriously rather than ones we tend to associate with defenseless or harmless creatures. > Two specifics: > > >. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them > >up et al. > > This isn't realistic belief. If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks in front > of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and behind are filling > me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as dead as any Ewoks I shoot. Perhaps. but I think that if the ewoks had not learned by now to scatter when they caught blaster fire there would be no ewoks. They showed themselves a primitive god worshipping race. In keeping with this I would expect they would have been a little less blase about large people who fling fire from from their fingertips, I know one of our primitive societies would. With stubby arms combined with their small size it would be difficult to put any force behind one of those sticks and the bows if my fuzzy memory serves me were a joke. Seriously, one good Uzi would have taken the whole lot out Which brings up another question. Where is the futuristic hand held machine gun? > > >Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a serious > >character which is to give storm troopers any competition. > > This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels. If Mr. Albrecht read > them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't serious characters or were capable > of little beyond "yeeking" and "smokko", then he missed a very great deal. Oh, there's no question the fuzzies where intelligent this, after all, was the point of the whole series. But as to being a physical threat I think not. Creatures that size learn the same response to a larger predator that I have with large unfriendly animals when I'm only armed with a sharp stick (I don't know about you but I run). David Albrecht General Electric
peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/12/85)
> capabilities. The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies would have > become had a non-interference directive kept them uncontaminated by man. The fuzzies would have become extinct. Remember Hokfusine? > This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels. If Mr. Albrecht read > them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't serious characters or were capable > of little beyond "yeeking" and "smokko", then he missed a very great deal. > /Bruce N. Wheelock/ Hear hear! -- Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076
CARTER@RU-BLUE.ARPA (08/13/85)
From: _Bob <Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA> From: <crash!bnw at NOSC.ARPA> Stormtroopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting back. One thing that bothered me about the Ewok victory: Guerrillas @i(never) finally defeat regulars without the assistance of an allied regular force. High-tech stormtroopers defeated by low-tech guerrillas sounds like a romanticized view of the Viet Cong (sans the NVA) to me. Perhaps that is why the cutness of Ewoks evokes such passionate reaction one way or the other. _B
mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (K.L. Martin, Hardware) (08/15/85)
I like Ewoks, but it's so hard to find a restaurant that cooks them properly :-) -mwt
bnw@crash.UUCP (08/17/85)
From: <crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA> mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) writes: >The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the installation in any >direction, unless they were to rely on really incredible luck. Alternatively, the Ewoks can lead their pursuers where they want them to go, and are seen doing so in the film. The Indians used this tactic against the army. The British fell victim to it in Africa more than once. >Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to fighting the >Imperials. As I said in my message, I agree with the idea that the Imperials had already been a problem for the Ewoks. Even if the particular traps we saw were not already in place, the concepts had probably been around for some weeks or months. The bugs had already been worked out of the system. >Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some >of these things with primitive tools. Consider medieval siege >engines, which took weeks to build with better tools. A pile of >logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set >up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling >quickly in the proper direction when released. I would expect a >modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right. None of the assemblies shown in the film were nearly as complicated as a siege engine. Knowing the concept in advance, I have no doubt that a U.S. Navy Seabee battalion could duplicate either in just a few hours, even if restricted to hand tools. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw