mooremj@EGLIN-VAX (08/12/85)
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector in
"Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same time as The Ringworld
Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 years old. Beowulf is Louis's
stepfather, so he is closer to 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become
a protector! Ideas?
marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (08/13/85)
In article <3246@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> mooremj@EGLIN-VAX writes: >Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector in >"Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same time as The Ringworld >Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 years old. Beowulf is Louis's >stepfather, so he is closer to 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become >a protector! Ideas? SPOILER WARNING: IF YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF "DOWN IN FLAMES", YOU MAY NOT WANT TO READ THIS -- NIVEN MAY WRITE THE BOOK SOMEDAY. Down in Flames was conceived before Ringworld Engineers...in fact, it may have been conceived before Ringworld, since one of the premises of Down in Flames is that the faster FTL drive (used in Ringworld) was actually a hoax. Therefore, Down in Flames could very well be incompatible with Known Space as it has since developed. NEVERTHELESS, I can suggest one way that Beowulf Sheaffer could easily be the right age to eat Tree-of-Life root anytime he wanted. In the known Sheaffer stories, he is likely in his late twenties/early thirties. He could be Louis's stepfather at this time. Then for some reason (possibly connected with the Puppeteer hoax that he helped start), he had occasion to hop on a Ramjet and go off somewhere at speeds that would provide enough relativistic time dilation to let him age ten years while Louis ages 200. At the end of the journey, Sheaffer ends up...at Home, for example, where there is lots of Tree-of-Life root. Sheaffer turns into a protector, picks up an FTL rocket from the ones left on Home when the other Protectors left, and rushes back to wherever he has to be to start the events in Down in Flames. Second possibility: the whole point of Down in Flames is that the T'Nuctipun are not dead. Suppose the T'Nuctipun get worried about human Protectors... after all, human Protectors are supposed to be even nastier than Pak Protectors. The T'Nuctipun figure that it might be in their best interests to study a Protector, maybe "put one on the payroll" so to speak so they can have their tame Protector help them against other protectors that may appear. They grab poor Sheaffer as Sheaffer is off alone on some solo trip (who cares what he's doing?), stuff him full of Tree-of-Life root, then hold him prisoner for centuries. Perhaps they can keep him in line just by threatening to destroy large human colonies if he disobeys. A Protector would likely submit if the alternative was a direct threat to his charges. So Sheaffer has to help the T'Nuctipun for 200 years; then he manages to escape in some clever way (perhaps he fakes his own death so the T'Nuctipun don't make a retributive strike on humanity), and the wheels are set in motion. This makes a more interesting scenario, because it means that there is at least one Protector out there who has some familiarity with T'Nuctipun technology. NOTE: To all those who have never heard of Down in Flames, it was a story outline by Larry Niven that circulated on the net a few years ago. In it, the whole Known Space series was turned on its ear by the suggestion that the T'Nuctipun were not a race that died out a million years ago. They're here, now, and nasty. For their own reasons, they mug any ship that tries to go FTL too close to any star's gravity well (it's to their advantage that Known Space races believe that they have to go a long way out of their way before they can go FTL). The Puppeteers are fleeing from the T'Nuctipun, not the exploding centre of the galaxy. In fact, the centre of the galaxy is not exploding. That is all a hoax the Puppeteers played on Beowulf Sheaffer to explain why they were running. And so on, and so forth. Everything you thought you knew is far from the truth. Down in Flames was thrown together after some sort of party many years ago. Someone suggested to Niven that he should write one last Known Space story and destroy most of the galaxy. Down in Flames certainly puts an end to Known Space as we know it. However, I doubt if it can be considered an official part of the series; if and when the book ever comes out, it is likely to be a lot different. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
bottom@katadn.DEC (08/15/85)
Beowolf Scheaffer becomes a Protector? I missed that one. What story/book did this happen in? Thanks... Dave Bottom DEC Augusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom
Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA (08/15/85)
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA> How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In Flames") if he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice kept his physical age down to 30 or so. --Peter Alfke
wjr@utai.UUCP (William Rucklidge) (08/15/85)
> > Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector in > "Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same time as The Ringworld > Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 years old. Beowulf is Louis's > stepfather, so he is closer to 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become > a protector! Ideas? > marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) Well, as I remember (it's been a while) nowhere in the Known Space history has someone who is on boosterspice eaten tree-of-life root. Seeker did when he and Teela found Mars, but he was not on boosterspice, but the Ringworld immortality drug, which is based on tree-of-life. So, it is not ruled out that someone who is chronologically older than the cutoff but who is on boosterspice so that their physical age is about right will die from eating tree-of-life root. Beowulf should have no problems... -- William Rucklidge University of Toronto UUCP {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr CSNet wjr@toronto BITNET wjr at utoronto This message brought to you with the aid of the Poslfit Committee.
peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/17/85)
> From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA> > > How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In Flames") if > he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice kept his physical > age down to 30 or so. > > --Peter Alfke Nope. Remember, Louis Wu was too old, and he had been on Boosterspice for 200 years. Remember too that Ringworld youth drug conflicted with boosterspice, ane Halrloprilallar died from the conflict. -- Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076
godwin@uci-icse (08/20/85)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
OK, boys and girls, here's the current synopsis ( after I ran off
and re-read Protector and the pertenant sections of Ringworld Engineers. ).
1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would live in a free
atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got turned into a Protector.
2. The virus got all over the Home colony. The entire elligible population
changed into Protectors. The rest died. Home was then used as a
staging area to fight the incoming Pak. First, the Home boys ( sorry )
built fake cities and stuff all over the planet to sucker in the
Pak scout ships. The scouts were destroyed, and the Home team ( real
sorry ) left this part of space to fight of the main Pak fleet. No
more word is ever heard from Truesdale or his followers.
3. Treusdale's pregnant wife, who knows all about Brennan and the incoming
Pak colony fleet supposedly makes it back to the Belt, and the Human
governments at least should know what she knows.
4. Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu. In 'Engineers', he
reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds. Lots of years spent
on Earth, and enough years on various colony world to make him feel
like a native. On of these he mentions is Home. So apparently
Home is resettled.
So, questions that I don't see clear answers to:
1. How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere of Home ?
And did they also remove all trace of their presence ( fake cities, etc )
from same ? I guess they had to have, but this is a bit heavy on my
suspension of disbelief.
2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they hadn't, humans
would know. So what happened to the winners ? Did everybody die ?
They aren't in known space or on the Ringworld. Somebody ( Outsiders,
Grog telepaths, Teela Brown ) would notice something after all those
years. Where are they hiding ( and what are they doing ? ) ?
Maybe they did all die. None of them but Truesdale had decendants left
anywhere at all, so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have
been no reason to live on. Poor guys. It's too bad they never stuck
around for the Man-Kzin wars. There would only have been one war. And
no more Kzinti.
3. Small detail question. The stl Ramships found on the starport docks
on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld attitude jets,
right ? Built by Ringworld natives ( City Builders ? ), millenia
after all the Ringworld Pak died off. So whose Pak style vacsuit did
Loius and Chmeee find on that one intact starship ? Vacsuits are form
fitting. Teela Brown's ?
Also, wasn't 'Down In Flames' a satire by Niven on Niven ? I can't
see Bea Sheaffer as a Protector. Protectors shouldn't oughta be 7 + feet
tall. ( Imagine a basketball team of We Made It descended Protectors. )
So lets clutter up the net with more Niven talk. What other holes
in continuity do you folks see ?
Daveokamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto) (08/22/85)
In article <3352@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>, godwin@uci-icse writes: > From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse> > > 1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would live in a free > atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got turned into a Protector. > > 2. The virus got all over the Home colony. The entire elligible population > changed into Protectors. The rest died. Home was then used as a > staging area to fight the incoming Pak. First, the Home boys ( sorry ) > built fake cities and stuff all over the planet to sucker in the > Pak scout ships. The scouts were destroyed, and the Home team ( real > sorry ) left this part of space to fight of the main Pak fleet. No > more word is ever heard from Truesdale or his followers. Sorry, but what the Brennan-monster grew was a strain of the tree-of-life virus that would grow in a human. Thus, all that Brennan needed to do was to insure that either his or Truesdale's corpse reached Home. > 4. Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu. In 'Engineers', he > reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds. Lots of years spent > on Earth, and enough years on various colony world to make him feel > like a native. On of these he mentions is Home. So apparently > Home is resettled. > > So, questions that I don't see clear answers to: > > 1. How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere of Home ? > And did they also remove all trace of their presence ( fake cities, etc ) > from same ? I guess they had to have, but this is a bit heavy on my > suspension of disbelief. The reason that there was no tree-of-life virus when Home was resettled is that there were no more humans left. No humans, no virus, no more protectors. Also, "Protector" implies that Home was devastated by fusion bombs from the Pak scouts. Granted that the rather large craters are hard to hide... > 2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they hadn't, humans > would know. Remember the epilogue? Truesdale sent off the pulse iff they lost. Though this raises some interesting questions. What happened to the Pak scouts? Maybe they both lost -- doomsday weapon? > None of them but Truesdale had decendants left > anywhere at all, so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have > been no reason to live on. Well, Brennan said that the will to die was mostly cultural. They could generalize their paternal instincts to the whole human race. But I think they all died, Pak and Homers. > 3. Small detail question. The stl Ramships found on the starport docks > on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld attitude jets, > right ? Built by Ringworld natives ( City Builders ? ), millenia > after all the Ringworld Pak died off. So whose Pak style vacsuit did > Louis and Chmeee find on that one intact starship ? Vacsuits are form > fitting. Teela Brown's ? Pak-style doesn't necessarily mean Pak-shaped. But the City Builders "spilled over the rim walls and found starships". These could be old-style Pak ships (Hope there's no tree-of-life still on board!) As a shameless ploy, let me recommend the Chaosium game "Ringworld". The essays contained within are quite good. Anyone got any solutions to the Grog Problem? "Tanj for torment!" The New Number Who, Jeff Okamoto okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU ..!ucbvax!okamoto
okie@ihuxi.UUCP (Cobb) (08/23/85)
> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse> > > 1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would live in a free > atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got turned into a Protector. I recently reread "Protector" also... and I thought Brennan developed the variant virus to survive in a human being. To my way of thinking, that doesn't necessarily mean it could live in a free atmosphere. If this is the case, then I can see the virus disappearing from Home eventually, thus making it viable for resettlement. Agree? Disagree? > And did they also remove all trace of their presence ( fake cities, etc ) > from same ? I guess they had to have, but this is a bit heavy on my > suspension of disbelief. Remember, Pak think big. They (supposedly) built the Ringworld. Cleaning up Home would be *peanuts* compared to that, and necessary if they wanted to keep any true Pak that might escape from the battle with the Home Pak from eventually getting back to Earth. > 2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they hadn't, humans > would know. So what happened to the winners ? Did everybody die ? "There are some things man was not meant to know." (a quote from Niven) Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't, but are out there building more Ringworlds. Maybe they tried to go back to the Core worlds to root out (excuse the pun) the remaining Pak, to eliminate any further threat to Earth from that source. Some questions just never get answered. On the subject of the vacsuit in the ramship on the spaceport ledge... I don't know. I'll think on it. B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie "One day we must decide who rules this expedition."
bottom@katadn.DEC (08/23/85)
In what story/book did Beowolf Scheaffer become a protector? I think I have never read that one. Thanks Dave Bottom DEC AUgusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom
rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (08/28/85)
From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU OK, let's go for bizarre theories... 1) Teela knew that there were more human protectors around. Why? She knew about Pthsspok, and could deduce what Brennan would do. 2) The human protectors found the hyperspace drive (maybe even the Mark 2). Remember, they are much more intelligent than the Pak protectors. With this, and their patience, they certainly found the ringworld. 3) The human protectors decided that the best interests of the human race would NOT be served by eliminating all possible danger. Rather, they decided that possible threats (puppeteers, kzinti, etc.) would challenge the human race, but not cause any damage. Remember that Brennan did not want the human race to have access to tree-of-life because it would cause internecine warfare? What better way to make a better human race than to unify it with the threat of Kzin, say, but fix the outcome in such a way that hard work by the human race would make it prevail (shades of Doc Smith here...) 4) Teela, of course, knows this (somehow...) She knows that the human protectors exists, and thet they know about the ringworld. For that matter, they have already met and decided upon a course of action...a lucky protector is bad for the human race (without harsh reality to intervene, Teela's instincts would be too strong?). So Teela challenged Louis Wu to fix the ringworld. If he failed, the rest of the protectors would be there to fix it. If Louis couldn't fix it, he wasn't up to the task. 5) Teela, due to her instincts, is really protecting homo sapiens. By forcing Louis to kill 5% of the Ringworld, she is making that space available to humans (5% of ringworld = 3E5 Earths). OK, so this is a bit silly, she could kill all the ringworld, but maybe the other protectors wouldn't let her... Robert^Z