[net.sf-lovers] Leeper's views on comics...

moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime) (08/25/85)

I'm here to put out a smoldering ember before it becomes an inner-newsgroup
flaming (literally) inferno:

In article <1075@mtgzz.UUCP> leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>[...] Then I did not read more than a comic book a year
>until relatively recently.  What I did read convinced me that comics were
>maturing a little but were still silly and banal.  Recently a friend who is
>a big comic fan got me reading a few.  My conclusion is that my distaste for
>super-heroes rules out the vast majority of comics sold.  At some point, I
>will probably write a general article about my conclusions about comic
>books.

Well, Mark, I read a fair number of comics, although a small amount of the
total output of the varied publishing companies, and my general conclusion
about the maturity of comics is this:  Sturgeon's Law, i.e. 90% of
everything is crap.  Goes for comics.  Goes for films.  Goes for (gasp!)
science fiction and mysteries and novels.  Goes for net news articles (and
as this one seems to be headed for the larger of the two percentages, let me
sum up).  I don't know about comics becoming more mature -- mature, to me,
means being polite and reasonable, and, By George, you couldn't ask for a
quieter and more well-behaved tenant in that basement or attic or guest room
than a box of comics.  I think comics have *improved* a good deal over the
last 10 years, due mostly to an older group of people reading them, who have
gotten tired of cliches and have developed the demand for more refined (more
complex, more realistic characterizations, more IMAGINATION and ORIGINALITY
-- the latter two are the most important, and the most frequent of pleasant
surprises in the latest wave of comics).  The increase in the number of
independent publishers and the introduction of the direct-sales (to comic
shops) market have made this market viable, and thus we have gems like
CEREBUS and ZOT! and AMERICAN FLAGG! and AMBUSH BUG and JOURNEY and etc,
etc, etc.  We unfortunately also have G.I. JOE, A REAL AMERICAN HERO and
MARVEL SECRET WARS, but hey, we call it T.S.'s law because it is a LAW, like
gravity, light speed, and death & taxes.

Well, anyway, I bet all you sf-lovers are sick of this discussion, so from
now on, how about any follow-ups going to net.comics?  Alright...

       "Living without hallucinations is like breathing with only one nostril"

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
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<*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want to me, but leave my employers alone! <*>

moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime) (08/30/85)

In article <1094@mtgzz.UUCP> leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>
> >I'm here to put out a smoldering ember before it becomes an
> >inner-newsgroup flaming (literally) inferno:
>
>Such emotion.  Jeez!

Just trying to head off a plethora of flames from laying waste to both our
houses...

>Slight correction.  It seems to go for the comics that people
>recommend, not just comics in general.  The ones I read were the ones
>that comic readers told me were the best of the lot.  Of course there
>may be a multiplicity of opinions.  As I remember, the one that was
>recommended was a "relevant" Green Arrow that presented some pretty pat
>views of race relations.

Depends on who recommends 'em.  If you're talking about those old Denny
O'Neil/Neal Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow comics, I agree with you --
their race relations stuff is extremely pat, though it was advanced in
1969 when it was first published, just for talking about the subject -- it
had been pretty well ignored up to that point in comics.

> >a quieter and more well-behaved tenant in that basement or
> >attic or guest room than a box of comics.  
>
>If that is how you measure if a comic is mature, I can agree with you.

*Sigh*.  So much for an uneven attempt at lightening the atmosphere...

> >I think comics have *improved* a good deal over the last 10
> >years, due  mostly to an older group of people reading them, 
> >who have gotten tired of cliches and have developed the demand
> >for  more refined (more complex, more realistic
> >characterizations, 
> 
>I was loaned a copy of X-MEN that had a two of the super-characters
>having a deep soul-searching discussion in a whirlwind half a mile
>above the ground.  I can stand outside of my fandom of science fiction
>and laugh at the tacky look of certain Star Trek episodes.  Surely you
>can be big enough to admit there is something pretty weird about this
>sort of juxtaposition if serious discussion and silly image.

Why are two characters have a soul-searching discussion in a whirlwind any
less plausible than discussions in strange locations in SF stories?
(conversations via playing cards in the Amber series seems plausible
enough...).  I don't have to be "big" enough to admit that it was a poorly
scripted scene; I agree that this *is* mediocre writing, but it is not
inherently bad due to characters or setting, it is due to a writer whose
imagination has dried up lately.  Besides, who picked X-Men as the zenith of
comics writing?  What I disliked in your original article is that you are
saying the amount of crap in comics is greater than what Sturgeon's Law
(which I assume is mutually accepted) allows for from a scant reading of
what is out there.  I do not presume to go beyond SL in regards to SF
because other than Cherryh, Poul Anderson and Roger Zelazny, I haven't read
much SF (besides, I believe SF has a lower crap quantity than SL specifies).
If I understand your arguments correctly, the only qualifications you have
for condemning the entire media of comics are reading X-Men and Green
Lantern/Green Arrow and laughing at Star Trek (the latter seems rather
cruel, like kicking an extremely talented handicapped person).

I have no problems with any critique of an individual comic, whether I agree
with it or not; any intelligent person understands the inevitability of
disagreement about creative works.  I also have no problem with casting the
spectre of Sturgeon's Law on comics; I find that it applies everywhere else.
The bone of contention is that you claimed comics are worse (i.e. more %
crap) than SF in ignorance of the subject you were slamming.  Do a little
more background work before slapping a misnomer on, will you?

        "I can give you my word, but I know what it's worth and you don't."
                                -Nero Wolfe, _Over_My_Dead_Body_

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb1, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty
<*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>

tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/03/85)

As a man with roughly 3,000 comics in his collection, a long-time fan of
both comic books and science fiction, and a reader of the classics, I would
like to thank Mark Leeper for his perceptive comments on comics.  Until we
fans come to realize that, yes, this crap is usually pretty bad, it will
remain bad.  Fans often seem unable to distinguish between relative
appreciation of a comic (case in point: O'Neil/Adams Green Lantern/Green
Arrow, which was far better than most comics of the day, but as Mark pointed
out, presented very pat answers to very difficult sociological questions)
and its absolute quality, the same standard we would use to judge a novel or
a movie.

I also appreciated his point about heavy emotional scenes in the middle of
whirlwinds; this is one of the oldest and stupidest of comic book cliches.
One of the few good points of Simpson's "Megaton Man" parody was the scene
in which the hero is being beaten on by fifty assorted super-villains while
breaking up with his girlfriend.

There are a few comics these days that measure up to a stndard comparable to
the standards for novels and movies.  For example, Swamp Thing, Cerebus,
Love and Rockets, Journey, V for Vendetta (in Warrior), and once upon a
time, American Flagg.  There are also good graphic novels, though not from
the two major companies (save "Elric").  We should encourage these comics as
being the next step in the growth of the genre, not defend the idiocies and
tritenesses of modern superhero comics, which more than anything else keep
the field in a disrespectable and shabby ghetto.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:	Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K	uucp:	seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
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