jim@randvax.UUCP (Jim Gillogly) (08/17/85)
There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" (Translated from
Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in the 13th century) and
minding my own business, when I ran across the following section, where
Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's Vision:
There many dwarfs
resembling men
they made in earth
as Durin said.
And the sibyl gives these as their names:
Nyi, Nidhi, (I'm using dh for a d with slash through it)
Nordhri, Sudhri,
Austri, Vestri,
Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar, Nain,
Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bafur,
Bombor, Nori,
Ori, Onar,
Oin, Mjodhvitnir,
Vig and Ganndalf, [Footnote on Ganndalf: "Sorcerer-elf"]
Vinndalf, Thorin,
Fili, Kili,
Fundin, Vali,
Thror, Throin,
Threkk, Lit, Vit,
Nyr, Nyradh,
Rekk, Radhsvidh,
And these too are dwarfs and they live in rocks, but the above-
mentioned live in the earth:
Draupnir, Dogthvari,
Haur, Hugstari,
Hledhjolf, Gloin,
Dori, Ori,
Duf, Andvari,
Heptifili,
Har, Sviar.
The following, however, came from Svarin's grave-mound to
Aurvangar in Joruvellir, and from these have sprung Lovar; their
names are
Skirvir, Virvir,
Skafidh, Ai,
Alf, Ingi,
Eikinskjaldi, [Footnote on this says "With-oak-shield"]
Fal, Frosti,
Fidh, Ginnar.
------
There were footnotes on some of the others, but these were the only ones
that seemed to have meaning to Tolkien fans. So if any of you want to
write about more dwarves, here are some likely ones... Dennis McKiernan,
are you in need of any for your world?
Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the dwarf
names are silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming. Little
did I know!
--
Jim Gillogly
{decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpachris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) (08/23/85)
>Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the dwarf >names are silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming. Don't let them hear you call their names silly! But Dain (no, no relation to the one of the Iron Hills) tells me that the alliteration and rhyming was purposeful. Listen again to some of their speech; while harsh, it has a certain beauty as well. Some of my best friends are Dwarves, -- Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland
barnett@ut-sally.UUCP (Lewis Barnett) (08/23/85)
> There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" (Translated from > Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in the 13th century) and > minding my own business, when I ran across the following section, where > Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's Vision: ...here followed a list of Dwarf names, many identical or very similar to the names Tolkien used for his dwarves. > Jim Gillogly > {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim > jim@rand-unix.arpa For those interested in etymology, Lin Carter wrote a pretty interesting book about the Lord of the Rings trilogy; don't quote me, but I think the title was "Tolkien: Behind LOTR," or something like that. There is a chapter devoted entirely to names and where JRR got them (including the dwarf names mentioned in the referenced article above...) and one on great swords, etc. There's probably some stuff on heroic fantasy in general, and how it relates to the classic epics, but it's been seven or eight years since I read the book. No guarantees that it's still in print. I don't recall seeing it in stores lately. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett
stever@cit-vlsi (08/25/85)
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Poul Anderson uses the same names (albeit spelled differently) in "The Broken Sword", a classic about dark elves and cursed blades. Awhile ago I asked whether anyone has the 1954 edition of TBS and I still haven't got any responses.. The intro to the 1971 edition comments on major changes, and I'd really like to know what happened. -steve
platt@spar.UUCP (John Platt) (08/26/85)
If anyone is interested in the origin of many of the names in Lord of the Rings, you might want to track down "Languages of Middle-Earth" by Ruth Noel. Or "Mythology of Middle-Earth", also by Ruth Noel. She mentions the dwarf names, and other interesting stuff, too. john platt decwrl!spar!platt (UUCP) or platt@sri-kl (ARPA)
allison@mitre.ARPA (08/28/85)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>
>Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the
>dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and
>rhyming.
The first few times I read the Hobbit I had no idea this was going on,
but when I recently read the Hobbit to my 3-1/2 year-old daughter --
out loud -- I found out that the book is *particularly* well suited to
that type of reading, and exceptionally well suited for reading to
children.
The book is broken into fairly discreet 15-30 minute reading segments
(if you're reading out loud to a child). The names and words and
descriptions are a fascinating combination of alliteration, verbal
whimsy, and (in a few instances of what seem sheer spitefulness)
tongue twisters. The concepts and conflicts presented in the Hobbit
are also well within the ken of even *very* young children.
My daughter enjoyed it, got a lot out of it, remembers it, and
(I suspect) will get more and more out of it when she reads it again --
on her own. I have no doubt that the dwarf names were, indeed, invented
for their alliteration and rhyming. And I, for one, can see why it
was done that way.
Burgess Allison
<allison@mitre>Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA (08/30/85)
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Tolkien was a philologist-- a student of the structure and history of language. As such, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that he was well aware of the differences between oral and written story telling styles. Much of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and almost all of The Silmarillion has the "feel" of oral history about it-- the type of thing that the bard, sage, or historian might tell in the feasting hall after the mead had been passed around. Furthermore, the I know nothing about it, but the Icelandic (?? I've deleted the original message) tale that the dwarves' names were derrived from sounds as if it were originally an oral history that only later got written down for posterity. The rhythmic, rhyming "flow" of names is a device found frequently in stories from an oral tradition and most probably serves as a mneumonic device to aid in preserving the names in memory. It is just another indicator of the differences between our cultures that these lists of names seem > silly and invented for their alliteration and >rhyming to us. I might also add that in taking these characters from an earlier story and building a new story around them ( a sort of "further adventures of Thorin and the Dwarf gang") Tolkien was doing something that was VERY traditional for creative oral storytellers to do-- an idea that probably amused him quite a bit. Finally, from some biography or other on Tolkien, I remember that The Hobbit was originally designed to be a story for Tolkien's children and was initially published as a children's book. In fact, he had some trouble with TLOTR when he went to publish it because it WASN'T a children's book. I think it's a tribute to the man's greatness that his books tend to work both verbally and in written form, and appeal to both very young children and to very profound adults. Hey, is this ART, or what?? --Chris Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (09/02/85)
In article <3444@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> allison@mitre.ARPA writes: > >The first few times I read the Hobbit I had no idea this was going on, >but when I recently read the Hobbit to my 3-1/2 year-old daughter -- >out loud -- I found out that the book is *particularly* well suited to >that type of reading, and exceptionally well suited for reading to >children. > Well, this is hardly surprising, since Tolkien created the story as a series of bedtime stories for his then-young sons It was published essentially as an afterthought. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}!psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa
dmm@calmasd.UUCP (David M. MacMillan) (09/03/85)
The following two postings appeared originally in net.nlang.celts.
I don't think that they're still available there; these are from local
copies I made. Needless to say, I had nothing to do with the original
postings, and so can neither claim credit nor recieve blame.
I've tried to edit the header info to the bare minimum.
David M. MacMillan
Path: calmasd!sdcc6!sdcc3!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim
>From: jim@randvax.UUCP (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 17 Aug 85 18:44:09 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute
There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" (Translated from
Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in the 13th century) and
minding my own business, when I ran across the following section, where
Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's Vision:
There many dwarfs
resembling men
they made in earth
as Durin said.
And the sibyl gives these as their names:
Nyi, Nidhi, (I'm using dh for a d with slash through it)
Nordhri, Sudhri,
Austri, Vestri,
Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar, Nain,
Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bafur,
Bombor, Nori,
Ori, Onar,
Oin, Mjodhvitnir,
Vig and Ganndalf, [Footnote on Ganndalf: "Sorcerer-elf"]
Vinndalf, Thorin,
Fili, Kili,
Fundin, Vali,
Thror, Throin,
Threkk, Lit, Vit,
Nyr, Nyradh,
Rekk, Radhsvidh,
And these too are dwarfs and they live in rocks, but the above-
mentioned live in the earth:
Draupnir, Dogthvari,
Haur, Hugstari,
Hledhjolf, Gloin,
Dori, Ori,
Duf, Andvari,
Heptifili,
Har, Sviar.
The following, however, came from Svarin's grave-mound to
Aurvangar in Joruvellir, and from these have sprung Lovar; their
names are
Skirvir, Virvir,
Skafidh, Ai,
Alf, Ingi,
Eikinskjaldi, [Footnote on this says "With-oak-shield"]
Fal, Frosti,
Fidh, Ginnar.
------
There were footnotes on some of the others, but these were the only ones
that seemed to have meaning to Tolkien fans. So if any of you want to
write about more dwarves, here are some likely ones... Dennis McKiernan,
are you in need of any for your world?
Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the dwarf
names are silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming. Little
did I know!
--
Jim Gillogly
{decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpa
Path: calmasd!sdcc6!sdcc3!sdcsvax!dcdwest!ittatc!decvax!decwrl!spar!platt
>From: platt@spar.UUCP (John Platt)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 26 Aug 85 16:33:11 GMT
Reply-To: platt@max.UUCP (John Platt)
Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA
If anyone is interested in the origin of many of the names in Lord of the
Rings, you might want to track down "Languages of Middle-Earth" by Ruth Noel.
Or "Mythology of Middle-Earth", also by Ruth Noel. She mentions the dwarf
names, and other interesting stuff, too.
john platt
decwrl!spar!platt (UUCP)
or platt@sri-kl (ARPA)nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (09/09/85)
It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more hyped
on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments about his
writing technique.
He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with
some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current
work and read them to the group who would then criticise. Given the
probaility that all of the group had had 'classical' educations
( i.e. learnt greek from the works of the poets ) is it any wonder
that the stories work well when spoken.
Given that Tolkien's field of expertise was early english literature
which is heavily into alliteration, is it surprising that his style is
also alliterative.
--
--
{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh
Nigel The Mad Englishman or
The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses
Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination.
Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions.
"Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) (09/10/85)
In article <269@lzwi.UUCP> nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) writes: >It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more hyped >on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments about his >writing technique. > >He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with >some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current >work and read them to the group who would then criticise. ... I think the group was called the Inklings or something similar. Another member of the group was Charles Williams, writer of fantasies like 'All Hallow's Eve.' -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly