spaf@gatech.CSNET (Gene Spafford) (01/09/86)
I just happened to go browsing through our spool directory, and
I really find it quite amusing to note that in over three weeks, there
have been only 3 articles posted to net.internat, and two of them were
items crossposted from net.jokes.
It still astonishes me to think about the amount of abuse that I
received way back when because I dared try to "rmgroup" the group
because it hadn't gone through the proper procedure for creation. I
was told in no uncertain terms that there was lots of interest and more
than enough support to make it a viable newsgroup. Right.
Of course, maybe I missed it. Maybe all the people who obviously knew
so much used the group to solve all the international standardization
problems, using just 120 articles (total we have ever received in the
group) to do so. Good job, folks.
--
Gene "the end is in sight" Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332-0280
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ Relay.CS.NET
uucp: ...!{akgua,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!spafminow@decvax.UUCP (Martin Minow) (01/10/86)
Gene Spafford noted that net.internat has been quiet lately, suggesting that the problems have been solved and this news group is consequently unneeded. There is a subtle internationalization point to be made here: many Europeans could get a solid two-week vacation at Christmastime this year by investing five vacation days; thus it is reasonable to expect that traffic will be lower at this time. Martin Minow decvax!minow
iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) (01/11/86)
In article <2390@gatech.CSNET> spaf@gatech.CSNET (Gene Spafford) writes: >I just happened to go browsing through our spool directory, and >I really find it quite amusing to note that in over three weeks, there >have been only 3 articles posted to net.internat, and two of them were >items crossposted from net.jokes. > >It still astonishes me to think about the amount of abuse that I >received way back when because I dared try to "rmgroup" the group >because it hadn't gone through the proper procedure for creation. I > >Of course, maybe I missed it. Maybe all the people who obviously knew >so much used the group to solve all the international standardization >problems, using just 120 articles (total we have ever received in the >group) to do so. Good job, folks. >-- >Gene "the end is in sight" Spafford >The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332-0280 >CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ Relay.CS.NET >uucp: ...!{akgua,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!spaf I never sent any articles because it seemed impropable that any US site would see the group. Please respond on the following topics:- US keyboards why are we forced to use them. The Dinette advert.. Is this a dollar or a pound ? $ Why are machines released over a year ahead in the colonies. (e.g. Amiga) ? Is the Torch XXX better than any American Machine ? Is Gene fit to pedal a C5 ? -- Ian W Moor UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!iwm ARPA: iwm%icdoc@ucl Department of Computing Whereat a great and far-off voice was heard, saying, Imperial College. Poop-poop-poopy, and it was even so; and the days 180 Queensgate of Poopy Panda were long in the land. London SW7 Uk.
spaf@gatech.CSNET (Gene Spafford) (01/12/86)
It was suggested in a previous article that net.internat was quiet
because Europeans generally take a two week holiday at the end of the
year. However, I have been informed by someone whose site has the disk
to record such things that net.internat has seen but three articles in
(at least) the last 6 weeks; two of those were jokes. Perhaps the
concept of "week" needs to be standardized?
--
Gene "the end is in sight" Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332-0280
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ Relay.CS.NET
uucp: ...!{akgua,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!spafmark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (01/13/86)
Good, let's get some discussion going here. I suppose this would go better as separate messages, but that's nontrivial, given the format of the original message. >US keyboards why are we forced to use them. As you can all see, I have a gun to your head and will shoot you if you don't use that US keyboard you have there. I see lots of American companies which produce foreign language keyboards and character sets, I'm willing to bet there are lots of European companies that produce keyboards for the local market. If you think you've got it bad in England trying to use a US keybaord (aww) imagine what the poor Japanese are going through! (and THEY actually seem to PREFER the US keyboard and US phonetic conventions for input of Japanese text!) >Is this a dollar or a pound ? $ I never understood why the British decided to put their currency symbol on top of the 3 and leave the $ on shift 4, instead of putting their currency symbol in the "currency symbol" slot. Just because some fraction of the US pronounces # as "pound" (most prounce it "number sign", "hash mark", or "sharp") Britain has two currency symbols on their keyboards. >Why are machines released over a year ahead in the colonies. (e.g. Amiga) ? Yeah, you've got it rough over their with no Amigas. On the other hand, I understand Commodore has released a UNIX box with a high res bitmap display, costing a typical Commodore price, but only in Europe. Apparently Commodore has managed to alienate the US dealers by selling the C64 and VIC 20 through K Mart and Toys R US, so they won't carry a higher end machine that requires customer support. (That doesn't explain why dealers here are carrying the Amiga, though, maybe they don't want their new products competing with each other. Or maybe they are test marketing.)
mikeb@inset.UUCP (Mike Banahan) (01/13/86)
Actually, those of us who are really working on the problem didn't take any holiday at all ove Christmas -- I was reading several proposals on this very subject as the clock struck midnight on Christmas eve. But I'm not looking for sympathy - I get paid for that stuff. What is actually happening is that the ``real'' work, i.e. research and development, to the tune of some millions of dollars/pounds per year (substitute your own conversion factors) is being done by some hard-nosed commercial outfits who seek to make money from it. The work goes in phases - design, test, implement, redesign and so on; it is the classical iterative engineering design and test phase. It is unrealistic to expect that the wider world is going to be invited to participate in the nitty-gritty of this work. What can be done in this newsgroup and the associated committee meetings is to provide 1) a general forum for debate (useful) 2) a way in which the community can help take part in the consultative activity. One of my responsibilities is to try to get information out of the commercial setups about what they are doing and to spread the word. In that way, Joe Public may just get to have some say in what is going on. The poor turkey certainly wouldn't get a look-in otherwise. Interest in (1) has quitened a bit recently. Item (2) has been quiet because the commercial group that I talk to most, X/OPEN, has been going through one of the design proposal stages. They will be holding a private meeting in the last week of January to discuss the work. I am lucky enough to have been invited to the meeting. I hope to get permission to publish some of the proposals which they are making, both here on the net and elsewhere. Comments from the net readership will be very welcome; I suspect (having read the briefing papers) that some controversy may be generated. Wait till you see the proposals for generic Regular Expressions! I expect that the discussion stimulated by the commercial efforts will always be cyclic in nature. -- Mike Banahan, Technical Director, The Instruction Set Ltd. mcvax!ukc!inset!mikeb
edward@ukecc.UUCP (Edward C. Bennett) (01/13/86)
In article <274@ivax.icdoc.UUCP>, iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes: > Please respond on the following topics:- > The Dinette advert.. I presume you means things like "Dinette for sale. Call Jim @ x435". These are just posting from inexperienced users who've never heard of the bolour supplement. > Is this a dollar or a pound ? $ Gawrsh, shur luks lyahke a dollar ta me. > Why are machines released over a year ahead in the colonies. (e.g. Amiga) ? Perhaps because we're closer to Japan. ;-) > Is Gene fit to pedal a C5 ? What's a C5? -- Edward C. Bennett UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward /* A charter member of the Scooter bunch */ "Goodnight M.A."
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (01/14/86)
[Not food] While the idea of international standardization is a very good one, I am afraid it is very naive to expect a newsgroup by itself to accomplish anything. What is needed is an international committee, containing representatives from the principle computer companies in the world. (If UNIX(tm) is to be the basis for such an effort, it may suffice to get those companies which play a major role in UNIX; but this must include a sufficient variety of companies from non-English-speaking countries.) This should be preceded by someone with the requisate technical skills and stature putting together a design proposal, which the committee can use as a starting point. Committees are good at elaborating and correcting designs, but terrible at creating them. A newsgroup would be quite useful as an adjunct to such a committee, providing feedback from a larger group of potential users. Another possible approach would be for some company to go ahead and produce such a system, hoping it will be salable when finished. This is more likely to work for a large, prestigious firm than for a small startup. In this case, the newsgroup would have nothing to do until a preliminary version of the system was available. P.S. I found what there was on net.internat to be quite valuable. But the need now is for someone to do something, not for discussion. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
jmh@ukc.UUCP (Jim Hague) (01/15/86)
In article <1762@cbosgd.UUCP> mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes: >I never understood why the British decided to put their currency symbol >on top of the 3 and leave the $ on shift 4, instead of putting their >currency symbol in the "currency symbol" slot. Good grief. Have we ? Somebody'd better get round to telling Acorn ... Seems a pretty potty decision. Where's your sterling, UK users ? >Yeah, you've got it rough over there with no Amigas. On the other hand, >I understand Commodore has released a UNIX box with a high res bitmap >display, costing a typical Commodore price, but only in Europe. Interesting definition of a no-frills yucko-PC clone. My understanding of the Amiga delay is that the video chip had to be redesigned to stuff out PAL, which doesn't seem unreasonable. I somehow doubt the existance of high-powered Commodore executives conspiring to withold Amigas from a steadily-more-desperate Europe :-) On a more appropriate note, can we please stop all this cross-Atlantic bitching - or at least move it to net.intercontinental.squabbles. Sad to say both sides appear equally culpable (am I the only one who finds nearly all the UK stupidity emanating from one site ? I won't say who), so please everybody try and keep this a little more civil, or maintain a dignified silence. To which state my return is now overdue. -- Jim Hague UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!jmh Tel: +44 227 66822 x7697 TG: 72:MAG10135 +44 227 454993 Recursive (adj). See recursive. - The Devil's DP Dictionary.
leif@erisun.UUCP (Leif Samuelsson) (01/16/86)
In article <274@ivax.icdoc.UUCP> iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes: >Please respond on the following topics:- > US keyboards why are we forced to use them. You're not. European manufacturers usually have better ergonomics and comply better with national standards. > Is this a dollar or a pound ? $ Neither. It's a "currency symbol", like this: $ $ $ $$$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$ $ $ $ Followup: Is this a hash sign or a pound? # > Why are machines released over a year ahead in the colonies. (e.g. Amiga) ? > Is the Torch XXX better than any American Machine ? > Is Gene fit to pedal a C5 ? Why are british products never released outside the empire? (e.g. C5) ------ Leif Samuelsson ..enea!erix!erisun!leif Ericsson Information Systems AB, Advanced Workstations Division S-172 93 SUNDBYBERG, Sweden (59 19' N / 17 57' E) ---------------------- ! ! ! | ! ! ! ! This is not a pipe ! ---------------------- (It's not a vertical bar at all!)
dww@stl.UUCP (David Wright) (01/21/86)
In article <1762@cbosgd.UUCP> mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes: > ... >>Is this a dollar or a pound ? $ > >I never understood why the British decided to put their currency symbol >on top of the 3 and leave the $ on shift 4, instead of putting their >currency symbol in the "currency symbol" slot. I for one am glad that the pound sign (on my US-made VT100) is NOT on the same key as the dollar sign, as I often have to use both in the same document - e.g. when preparing purchasing budgets etc. for US-made gear where both dollar and sterling prices are shown. In the old days, when we were part of ITT, virtually every financial document used both currencies. In such documents pound seldom clashes with hash (tho' fortunately the word processor we use can handle both on the same document when it has to), but it would be nice to have totally separate characters. The dollar sign also gets used a lot in program source code, where the pound sign just looks silly - probably because of unfamiliarity in that application. So even in Europe we do need the dollar sign. Sometimes we get "Europeanised" software that shows the pound sign wherever the dollar character appears in the ASCII file, and it's a real pain.
iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) (01/22/86)
In article <438@erisun.UUCP> leif@erisun.UUCP (Leif Samuelsson) writes: > >In article <274@ivax.icdoc.UUCP> iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes: >>Please respond on the following topics:- > $ $ >Why are british products never released outside the empire? (e.g. C5) > >------ >Leif Samuelsson ..enea!erix!erisun!leif >Ericsson Information Systems AB, Advanced Workstations Division >S-172 93 SUNDBYBERG, Sweden (59 19' N / 17 57' E) > >---------------------- Well the C5 starts to vibrate if you go above 15 mph, the motor cuts out on a heavy load (i.e hill 0 I overtook one on a bike on the level do you really want one Uncle Clive Sinclair will sell you one cheap!) >! ! -- Ian W Moor UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!iwm ARPA: iwm%icdoc@ucl Department of Computing Whereat a great and far-off voice was heard, saying, Imperial College. Poop-poop-poopy, and it was even so; and the days 180 Queensgate of Poopy Panda were long in the land. London SW7 Uk.
arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL) (01/23/86)
In article <270@stl.UUCP> dww@stl.UUCP (David Wright) writes: >In article <1762@cbosgd.UUCP> mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes: >>I never understood why the British decided to put their currency symbol >>on top of the 3 and leave the $ on shift 4, instead of putting their >>currency symbol in the "currency symbol" slot. > >I for one am glad that the pound sign (on my US-made VT100) is NOT on >the same key as the dollar sign, as I often have to use both in the >same document - e.g. when preparing purchasing budgets etc. for >US-made gear where both dollar and sterling prices are shown. ... Not to mention that if I send a letter from the USA to my potential client in London saying something will cost $1000, and it looks to him like it will cost 1000 pounds because his terminal draws a pound sign where I put a $ sign ... just imagine the confusion.
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (01/25/86)
> > > >I for one am glad that the pound sign (on my US-made VT100) is NOT on > >the same key as the dollar sign, as I often have to use both in the > >same document - e.g. when preparing purchasing budgets etc. for > >US-made gear where both dollar and sterling prices are shown. > > ... Not to mention that if I send a letter from the USA to my > potential client in London saying something will cost $1000, and it > looks to him like it will cost 1000 pounds because his terminal draws a > pound sign where I put a $ sign ... just imagine the confusion. What if you want to correspond with someone in Japan? Where should the yen sign be? (A yen sign is a capital Y with a line through it). Should the character set contain all three symbols, just in case? Obviously, this can be extended to every major currency that has its own symbol. The keyboards and character sets aren't big enough. I can't think of any general way to solve the problem of assigning international currency symbols, except to spell the name of the currency instead of using the symbol. This means that users would have to be aware of character set dependencies. How do you guys in Europe handle this problem? Each of the national character sets has a symbol for the currency of its own country, doesn't it? -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
dik@zuring.uucp (Dik T. Winter) (01/27/86)
In article <840@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP writes: > >What if you want to correspond with someone in Japan? Where should the yen >sign be? (A yen sign is a capital Y with a line through it). Should the >character set contain all three symbols, just in case? > Japanese Yen symbol is in a position different from dollar and pound. >How do you guys in Europe handle this problem? Each of the national character >sets has a symbol for the currency of its own country, doesn't it? > Eh, no. For instance Dutch Guilder (our currency) is generally abbreviated to 'hfl' (a clear and succinct abbreviation). Further, the Portuguese Escudo is '$' (but 1$00 is not the same as $1.00), and Italian Lire is 'lit.'. -- dik t. winter, cwi, amsterdam, nederland UUCP: {seismo,decvax,philabs,okstate,garfield}!mcvax!dik
pete@stc.UUCP (01/27/86)
Summary: Expires: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Keywords: Xpath: ukc eagle In article <762@ucsfcgl.UUCP> arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold) writes: >... Not to mention that if I send a letter from the USA to my >potential client in London saying something will cost $1000, and it >looks to him like it will cost 1000 pounds because his terminal draws a >pound sign where I put a $ sign ... just imagine the confusion. Not much, in view of the usual trading relationship between the two currencies. Anyone remember when five bob was called a `dollar' and a half-crown a `half-dollar'? -- Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP> ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete `When your achievements match your expectations, it's time to move on.'
skl@kvvax4.UUCP (S|ren K. Lundsgaard) (01/27/86)
Isn't it fairly standard to use a two or three letter code for currency? Here in Norway, we use NOK, which means Norwegian Kroner, and I think that Danish Kroner are DKK. United States of America dollars are abbreviated US$. Not much except US means US. skl.
mikeb@inset.UUCP (Mike Banahan) (01/28/86)
In article <1034@mmintl.UUCP> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >While the idea of international standardization is a very good one, I am >afraid it is very naive to expect a newsgroup by itself to accomplish >anything. What is needed is an international committee, containing >representatives from the principle computer companies in the world. (If >UNIX(tm) is to be the basis for such an effort, it may suffice to get >those companies which play a major role in UNIX; but this must include >a sufficient variety of companies from non-English-speaking countries.) That is what the /usr/group, /usr/group/uk and EUUG internationalisation committes are trying to do. >This should be preceded by someone with the requisate technical skills and >stature putting together a design proposal, which the committee can use as >a starting point. Committees are good at elaborating and correcting >designs, but terrible at creating them. Nice idea, but not very easy. Much of this stuff falls into the category of ``unknown territory''; some, I agree, does not. >A newsgroup would be quite useful as an adjunct to such a committee, >providing feedback from a larger group of potential users. That's why it is here >Another possible approach would be for some company to go ahead and produce >such a system, hoping it will be salable when finished. This is more >likely to work for a large, prestigious firm than for a small startup. >In this case, the newsgroup would have nothing to do until a preliminary >version of the system was available. That is what the X/OPEN group is doing at the moment, as are also H.P., Bell Telephone manufacturing and Motorola (to my knowledge). >P.S. I found what there was on net.internat to be quite valuable. But the >need now is for someone to do something, not for discussion. More may be happening than you think. But it is good to hear these points raised; I hope that my points may be informative in response. -- Mike Banahan, Technical Director, The Instruction Set Ltd. mcvax!ukc!inset!mikeb
dan@ttds.UUCP (Dan Sahlin) (01/28/86)
Today I got more than 100 character sets (111 to be exact) officially registered at ECMA in Switzerland. It includes at least three different Swedish sets and lots of other national sets. As far as I can see, the symbol denoting currency always has a different position in the different standards. In Sweden we do not use a special character for our currency "krona". Instead it is either written as "kr" or - according to an international standard for banking - "SEK". All currencies have a three letter abbreviation in this standard, the first two characters being the country and the last the name of the currency. Thus american dollars become "USD". Dan Sahlin ..mcvax!enea!ttds!dan
mikeb@inset.UUCP (Mike Banahan) (01/29/86)
In article <202@kvvax4.UUCP> skl@kvvax4.UUCP (S|ren K. Lundsgaard) writes: >Isn't it fairly standard to use a two or three letter code for >currency? Here in Norway, we use NOK, which means Norwegian Kroner, >and I think that Danish Kroner are DKK. United States of America >dollars are abbreviated US$. Not much except US means US. > >skl. In international telexes we use PDS for pounds sterling (telex doesn't have curency symbols...) -- Mike Banahan, Technical Director, The Instruction Set Ltd. mcvax!ukc!inset!mikeb
craig@dcl-cs.UUCP (Craig Wylie) (01/29/86)
In article <202@kvvax4.UUCP> skl@kvvax4.UUCP (S|ren K. Lundsgaard) writes: >Isn't it fairly standard to use a two or three letter code for >currency? Here in Norway, we use NOK, which means Norwegian Kroner, >and I think that Danish Kroner are DKK. United States of America >dollars are abbreviated US$. Not much except US means US. > Cerainly all Euro Cheques use standard 3 character codes for all currencies. The British pound is GBP to avoid confusion with the lire which uses the same symbol (pound sign not available on this keyboard :-)). -- UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!craig| Post: University of Lancaster, DARPA: craig%lancs.comp@ucl-cs | Department of Computing, JANET: craig@uk.ac.lancs.comp | Bailrigg, Lancaster, UK. Phone: +44 524 65201 Ext. 4146 | LA1 4YR Project: Cosmos Distributed Operating Systems Research
crs@lanl.ARPA (01/29/86)
Isn't it time this subject line went away to be replaced with something
that actually describes the content of the postings?
On the system from which I am posting, the Subject:, Newsgroups: and
References: lines are in the editor buffer -- I assume that others would be
also, were they in the header. THEY CAN BE EDITED.
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer,
the government or your favorite deity.
Charlie Sorsby
...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs
crs@lanl.arpaarcher@hsi.UUCP (Garry Archer) (01/30/86)
> Not much, in view of the usual trading relationship between > the two currencies. > > Anyone remember when five bob was called a `dollar' and > a half-crown a `half-dollar'? > -- > Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP> > *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** *** NO THANKS, I'LL REPLACE THIS LINE, THANK YOU! *** Aye, and remember the days when you could go to the chippie for "a tanner o' chips 'n' a cod for a bob... any batter bits, mate?" Oh the good old days, now I'm REALLY homesick... I should never have mentioned the chippie. Next I'll be thinking of Marston's Pedigree... ARGH NO! Now I've done it! Anyway, its really nice to see articles from netlanders back home in good old Great Britain, now I'm glad I subscribed to this newsgroup! Ta, mates! Garry Archer, Health Systems International, New Haven, Connecticut, USA.
kay@warwick.UUCP (Kay Dekker) (02/05/86)
In article <363@ukecc.UUCP> edward@ukecc.UUCP (Edward C. Bennett) writes: >In article <274@ivax.icdoc.UUCP>, iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes: >> Please respond on the following topics:- >> The Dinette advert.. > I presume you means things like "Dinette for sale. Call Jim @ x435". >These are just posting from inexperienced users who've never heard of >the bolour supplement. Please! what *is* a dinette? I've been reading the net for a good while now, and no-one has ever explained what the *$&(#"@(!'~ things are. You see, we don't have them over here in the UK (well, at least not by that name). >> Is Gene fit to pedal a C5 ? > What's a C5? *Was* a C5... a gloriously misbegotten invention of that "great man of British science and technology", Sir Clive Sinclair (yea, he of the ZX81 et al. (though I think they were sold by Timex in the USA)). A kind of electric tricycle, which required no drivers' licence. They were not cheap, had an astoundingly low maximum speed, and needed pedalling (the auxiliary motive power source) if you didn't want to discover a flat battery whilst just in front of a large articulated vehicle. They sold like bicycles for fish, and were withdrawn from sale rather quickly. Sinclair did the development of the beasts just up the road from us at Warwick in the Science Park: as a PR gesture, they gave the University several, and I may tell you it was a fairly comical sight to watch our security guards zipping along at 5 mph with a tailwind... Kay. -- Virtue is its own punishment. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay