levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (10/27/86)
Please forgive me for choosing somewhat inappropriate newsgroups--net.travel, net.internat, and net.legal are the closest I could find for this question. net.mail would not do since that is not meant to be about paper mail, only about electronic mail. Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting, and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa. Are there treaties and procedures governing this, or what? People to whom I have tried to explain this concept do not seem to be able to grasp what I mean, saying things like "the dickens with the foreign country! It just delivers the mail! How simple can you get" and the like. Surely the higher price of "overseas" or international postage must be doing something more than just paying the way of the mail it is attached to, to the border of the destination country, otherwise why higher postage to Canada and Mexico? And surely the destination country's postal service isn't interested in completing the delivery gratis. So what's up? -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, go for it! allegra,ulysses,vax135}!ttrdc!levy -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, go for it! allegra,ulysses,vax135}!ttrdc!levy
ken@rochester.ARPA (Comfy chair) (10/27/86)
When I was a child I asked my father this question and he said there was an mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail. Unfortunately I can't check with my dad again for his sources. It sounds like the sensible thing to do, can you imagine the accounting headache otherwise? But I'd like to hear the real story too. Ken
dthk@mhuxd.UUCP (D. T. Hawkins) (10/28/86)
The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail will deliver it to the addressee without charge. From my stamp collecting days, I remember a lot of commemoratives being issued for one of the anniversaries of the UPU. Don Hawkins AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ ...ihnp4!mhuxd!dthk
alanj@orca.UUCP (10/28/86)
In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system >of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting, >and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has >originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa. Are there treaties >and procedures governing this, or what? > .... > .... international postage must be doing something more than just >paying the way of the mail it is attached to, to the border of the destination >country, otherwise why higher postage to Canada and Mexico? And surely the >destination country's postal service isn't interested in completing the >delivery gratis. So what's up? >-- Almost all countries of the world are members of the International Postal Federation, which was set up in the last century to deal with that exact problem. (Gad, I hope I have the name right!) Prior to the establishment of the IPF, each country had to establish separate treaties with every other country in the world! The IPF is basically a multi-way international treaty that says "I'll deliver your mail if you deliver mine, and we'll settle the difference." There are various minimum standards, such as the receiving country is not supposed to interfere with mail to its citizens, something that the USSR is frequntly accused of. The IPF does not actually carry the mail. Mail service between two different countries varies widely --- an air-mail letter to Japan may only take a couple days, while an air-mail letter to Poland can easily take a month (I know). The Polish letters pile up in New York til somebody decides to ship them over, then the pile up in Poland for a while. Surface mail takes even longer --- you get to add the time the letter spends in the hold of a ship to the time the bureaucracy takes. I don't think the IPF provides for setting the reimbursment rates. I think what happens is the the receiving country bills the sending country. Actually, the rates from the US to Canada are the same for the 1st ounce, and only 1 cent higher for additional ounces (18 vs 17 cents). Postcards are the same rate. I have no info on parcel post; they may well be wildly different. MAIL RATES US to: Canada & Mexico 1st class letter $.22 (first ounce) .18 (2nd & subsequent ozs.) Postcard .14 Columbia, Venezuela, Central America, the Caribbian, Bahamas, Bermuda, St. Pierre & Miquelon Air letter $.39 (per 1/2 oz.) Surface letter .37 (per 1/2 oz?) Air Postcard .33 Surface postcard .25 All other countries except Canada & Mexico Air letter $.44 (per 1/2 oz.) Surface letter .37 (per 1/2 oz?) Air postcard .33 Surface postcard .25 Aerogram $.36 -Alan Jeddeloh Tektronix GTD tektronix!orca!alanj
wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) (10/29/86)
In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system >of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting, >and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has >originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa. Are there treaties >and procedures governing this, or what? Strangely enough, you may find the answer in the net.ham-radio group, because we often mail QSL cards (to confirm a contact with a 'rare' country) overseas. There is an international treaty regarding mail. I think the governing body is in Geneva. I do not know how payments are handled, but you can buy what is called an International Reply Coupon (IRC) that the other end can use to send mail back to you. Hope this helps. David Lesher WB8FOZ -- decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet (ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA) "SERIOUS? Bones, it could upset the entire percentage!"
alanj@orca.TEK.COM (Alan Jeddeloh) (10/29/86)
In article <6379@mhuxd.UUCP> dthk@mhuxd.UUCP (D. T. Hawkins) writes: >The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's I *knew I had the name wrong! >by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail >will deliver it to the addressee without charge. I am currently a stamp collector and follow the US postage rates fairly closely (c.f. my last posting). The 2nd ounce rate to Canada is 18 cents (vs 17 for domestic mail). I seem to recall in the last postage rate increase go-around that the 2nd ounce rate for letters to Canada was expained as being required to make up a deficit in the Canadian reimbursment account -- the money the US gives to Canada to deliver stuff from the US. Of course, I could be wrong, I didn't get the name of the UPU right! -Alan Jeddeloh Tektronix GTD tektronix!orca!alanj
ekb@ho3cad.UUCP (#ERIC K. BUSTAD ) (10/29/86)
> The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's > by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail > will deliver it to the addressee without charge. From my stamp collecting > days, I remember a lot of commemoratives being issued for one of the > anniversaries of the UPU. I have read that the theory behind this is that there is about the same amount of mail going in one direction between two countries as there is going the other direction. So each country pays for delivering the mail from the other country with the extra money it gets for mail going to the other country. = Eric Bustad AT&T Bell Laboratories Holmdel NJ 07733-1988 (201)949-6257 ekb@ho3cad.ATT.COM or ihnp4!ho3cad!ekb
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (10/29/86)
The original agreements setting up the International Postal Union specified
a "you deliver my mail and I'll deliver yours" arrangement, in which the
destination country handles delivery for free, in return for the source
country doing the same for mail headed the other way. These agreements
are still essentially in effect, although there have been more recent
supplementary agreements covering compensation payments in the event that
the traffic is seriously asymmetrical.
--
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henryclewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (10/30/86)
In article <2203@orca.TEK.COM> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes: >In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >>Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system >>of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting, >>and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has >>originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa. Are there treaties >>and procedures governing this, or what? yup, well answered by Alan Jeddeloh - no comment from me. >... Actually, the rates from the US to Canada are the same for >the 1st ounce, and only 1 cent higher for additional ounces (18 vs 17 >cents). Unfortunately it's not reciprocal - domestic rates: $.34, Canada to US $.65. -- Chris Lewis Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis Phone: (416)-474-1955
werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (10/31/86)
it would greatly surprise me if the East Germans don't make the West Germans pay for delivering their mail. They charge for everything else: use of their roads and tracks and waterways. Of course, they don't let hardly anyone out to use the ones in the west and gifts flow mainly only in one direction .... If a West German goes to visit the East (don't know about other nationalities), he has to exchange a certain amount of money for every day he plans to stay there and at a ridiculous rate (25% of what I could get at a western bank) and the amount is anything but trivial. but I am getting side-tracked ... I would nearly expect that there is a totally uneven mail-flow to Mexico and many other countries also and that those countries insist on getting compensated.
craig@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Craig Wylie) (10/31/86)
In article <21937@rochester.ARPA> ken@rochester.UUCP (Comfy chair) writes: >.... mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail. > Ken This certainly seems the most likely, a letter posted in the UK will be delivered even if it carries another countries stamp. I don't know if the stamp value is checked or not. Craig. -- UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!craig| Post: University of Lancaster, DARPA: craig%lancs.comp@ucl-cs | Department of Computing, JANET: craig@uk.ac.lancs.comp | Bailrigg, Lancaster, UK. Phone: +44 524 65201 Ext. 4146 | LA1 4YR Project: Cosmos Distributed Operating Systems Research Group
faustus@ucbcad.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) (11/01/86)
In article <4237@ut-ngp.UUCP>, werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes: > If a West German goes to visit the East (don't know about other > nationalities), he has to exchange a certain amount of money for every > day he plans to stay there and at a ridiculous rate (25% of what I > could get at a western bank) and the amount is anything but trivial. > but I am getting side-tracked ... As I remember, I had to exchange about $20 for the one day I was there, and it seemed like a reasonable rate (although I could have gotten much more by exchanging it "informally"...) Wayne
alanj@orca.TEK.COM (Alan Jeddeloh) (11/05/86)
In article <532@comp.lancs.ac.uk> craig@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Craig Wylie) writes: >This certainly seems the most likely, a letter posted in the UK will be >delivered even if it carries another countries stamp. I don't know if the >stamp value is checked or not. Is this because the stamps are officially honored, or because they just slip by? US stamps are phosphor "tagged" so they glow green under short-wave UV. I think it is short wave --- the wavelength used to erase EPROMs, anyway. In the US, most letters go through high-speed "facer-cancellers" which look for the green glow. Letters without a glowing spot are kicked out for manual handling. There is also a human operator, who is supposed to check for the correct rate as the letters go by, but they are, after all, human. Are UK stamps tagged, also? I think they are, but I only collect US, and don't follow the rest of the world too much. Are we getting somewhat afield of the purpose of this newsgroup? Probably. -- -Alan Jeddeloh Tektronix GTD tektronix!orca!alanj
andrew@stc.co.uk (11/06/86)
In article <2203@orca.TEK.COM> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes: | Almost all countries of the world are members of the International Postal | Federation, which was set up in the last century to deal with that exact | problem. (Gad, I hope I have the name right!) Prior to the establishment | of the IPF, each country had to establish separate treaties with every | other country in the world! | | The IPF is basically a multi-way international treaty that says "I'll | deliver your mail if you deliver mine, and we'll settle the difference." | There are various minimum standards, such as the receiving country is | not supposed to interfere with mail to its citizens, something that | the USSR is frequntly accused of. | These treaties are so much to everyones advantage that the recipient country will guarantee to deliver insured mail. --- there is an Italian professor of politics who is single-handedly trying to bankrupt the Soviets... The scheme is this: pick a `well known' Soviet dissident and send him letters of encouragement insured, and requiring proof of delivery. When after a few months you still have not had your confirmation of delivery, wander down to your post office and collect your insurance (say $200). Your post office will then claim it back from the SU -- Regards, Andrew Macpherson. <andrew@tcom.stc.co.uk> {backbone}!ukc!stc!andrew "Sometimes a majority simply means all the fools are on one side" --- Christian Science Monitor
dave@inset.UUCP (Dave Lukes) (11/06/86)
In article <21937@rochester.ARPA> ken@rochester.UUCP (Comfy chair) writes: >When I was a child I asked my father this question and he said there >was an mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail. The only relevant info. I can supply is that a) there was an agreement (called `The International Postal Convention' I think) in 1875 or thereabouts concerning DELIVERY of international mail, I dunno if this covered reimbursement, though. (BTW: this little gem was gleaned from a recent USEN*X paper!) b) The PTTs (phone companies to Americans) used to (and probably still do) have an agreement to reimburse at some certain notional date each year. (I guess the CCITT hjandles this). (Another funny: they used to do it in `Old Gold Francs', even recently!) I would guess that there is a convention about this for post, but thats as far as I know. XXX -- Dave Lukes. (...!inset!dave) ``Fox hunting: the unspeakable chasing the inedible'' -- Oscar Wilde
jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid) (11/08/86)
In article <1057@bute.tcom.stc.co.uk> andrew@stc.UUCP (Andrew Macpherson) writes: > These treaties are so much to everyones advantage that the >recipient country will guarantee to deliver insured mail. --- there >is an Italian professor of politics who is single-handedly trying to >bankrupt the Soviets... > The scheme is this: pick a `well known' Soviet dissident >and send him letters of encouragement insured, and requiring proof of >delivery. When after a few months you still have not had your confirmation >of delivery, wander down to your post office and collect your insurance >(say $200). Your post office will then claim it back from the SU Oh dear! This appears to be another of these apocryphal stories. [Like the woman who put her poodle in the microwave to dry it after a bath.] When I heard it, the story was that a group of anti-Soviet protesters were doing this throughout Europe. I believe it was even published in the "Daily Mail" (not that I'd read such a Tory rag), so it must be true...... :-) :-) Jim