JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (09/09/85)
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White)
While recommending some books for a neophyte SFLOVER to read , Jim Brunet
wrote ;
> Foundation Trilogy (but not #4, or Asimov's other recent crud)
While I don't quibble with his recommendation to read the Foundation Trilogy.
I am struck by the statement, 'Asimov's other recent crud'. If by other
recent crud he means the Foundations Edge and the Robots of Dawn then I
believe him to be off the mark.
I thought the Robots of Dawn was a fitting sequel to the other Robot Novels
and I look forward to the new one, which I've ordered.
Concerning the Foundations Edge, I WAS a little upset with the loose ends
at the end, ( can you say "Foundation 4"?), but believed to be many orders
of magnitude better than the typical 'crud'.
Why 'crud'?jimb@ISM780B.UUCP (09/12/85)
Sorry for the belated reply, I was out of town. Having presented such a
broad target by declaring Asimov's recent work "crud," I'll try to defend
myself. Two works, FOUNDATION'S EDGE and ROBOTS OF DAWN are the subject of
my opinion.
My opinion of these works being "crud" rests on three basis.
1. Character. The original Foundation trilogy had a whole raft of
believable, memorable characters that I could recall without flipping
through the book -- Hari Seldon, Gaal Dornick, Salvor Hardin, Hober
Mallow, Latham Devers, Asper the Well-Beloved and his shrewish wife
(funny, she doesn't look shrewish :-;), Bel Riose, Hans Pritcher, the
Mule, Arkady, and Preem Palver for starts.
Likewise, Caves of Steel, had a very interesting Lije Baley, R. Daneel
Olivaw, and the inspector ***** SPOILER ***** who as Lije's boss, was the
culprit -- I forget his name but remember the character well.
In Foundation's Edge (FE), you *might* remember Golan Treveize six months
after you read the book (whereas I remembered many of the trilogy
characters and haven't read that in years.)
In Robots of Dawn (ROD), Lije Baley is still there, but the character
seems flatter to me, being more of a device being pulled across the stage
from event to event as he discovers the pieces of the puzzle necessary to
solve the mystery. I do not accept that this is necessary given the
mystery nature of the plot; plenty of mysteries have decent
characterization.
2. Plot. FT had a very satisfactory plot in terms of problems, solutions,
climaxes, anti-climaxes, etc., that concluded neatly enough.
Ditto, Caves of Steel (and The Naked Sun, its sequel, for that matter.)
***** SPOILER ******* The plot of FE, the renewed search for the Second
Foundation, Second Foundation internal politics of succession, and the
search for Earth (without the services of Lorne Green, yet), are so
ho-hum, not only in comparison to FT, but to many other s-f works.
ROD is a pedestrian logic puzzle, without much interesting happening and
with a poorly conceived human-has-sex-with-robot angle thrown in.
3. Finally, the WRITING. Asimov -- and I do love the man, his early works
along with Heinlein's and Norton's juveniles were what brought me into
the sf field -- has become a literary 800 lb. canary. Nobody will edit
him. Nobobdy *has* to. Why should Doubleday bother, when anything he
now writes is guaranteed megabucks best-seller?
His dialogue has gotten excruciating and much of the narrative is dull
and plodding. If you or I had turned in those manuscripts with our names
on them, they would have been returned at light-speed, perhaps with a
note saying "you have potential, but do join a workshop, okay?"
Part of the problem is that Asimov is getting "cuter" with age.
Following quotes are from article by Asimov in June, 1985 LOCUS.
Commenting on reading the Trilogy in 1981 for the first time in 30 years,
"... I marvelled at the fact that though there was virtually no action in
them, the world I had created was so real that when I got to the end I
was furious at being left hanging...."
In my opinion, the worlds created in ROD and FE are *not* as real.
Given poorer characterization and less captivating plots....
Next, Asimov got the idea of linking all his novels.
"Could it be that the Earthmen finally broke away, initiated a new spurt
of colonization in the galaxy, one in which robots were forbidden?
Could it be that the new spurt succeeded and that the new colonists
somehow replaced the spacers, who then disappeared from history? If so,
the universe of my robot novels would give way to the universe of my
Empire novels and Foundation series.
I couldn't resist the thought. Toward the end of Foundation's Edge, I
began to include intimations that that was what happened."
Well, folks, I feel it's forced. There's been enough on this net about
Niven saying no more Known Space books because of the complications and
being backed into a corner. By trying to stretch the Robots to the
Empire, I think Asimov had to warp both universes to make them "fit" --
and I liked the originals were better and, without wanting to launch
an entire exchange of "How do you judge Art?" postings, I think most
people would say they *were* better.
By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it.
The whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it.
1. The Complete Robot (short stories) 1982
2. The Caves of Steel (1954)
3. The Naked Sun (1957)
4. The Robots of Dawn (1983)
5. Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be off schedule]
6. one more transition novel, planned.
7. The Currents of Space (1952)
8. The Stars, Like Dust... (1951)
9. Pebble in the Sky (1950)
10. Prelude to Foundation (planned)
11. Foundation (1951)
12. Foundation and Empire (1952)
13. Second Foundation (1953)
14. Foundation's Edge (1982)
15. Foundation and Earth (in progress)
Kind of makes all the current trilogy and multi-ology writers look like
pikers.
So back to the original. Crud? Compared to the earlier work, definitely.
Compared to decent stuff currently published by other writers? I think so.
Compared to the average? Maybe not, but the mediocre is pretty mediocre,
don't you think? Responses welcome.
-- from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimbmichaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) (09/27/85)
[Eat death, line eater monst...] > By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it. > The whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it. > > 1. The Complete Robot (short stories) 1982 > 2. The Caves of Steel (1954) > 3. The Naked Sun (1957) > 4. The Robots of Dawn (1983) > 5. Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be off schedule] > 6. one more transition novel, planned. > 7. The Currents of Space (1952) > 8. The Stars, Like Dust... (1951) > 9. Pebble in the Sky (1950) > 10. Prelude to Foundation (planned) > 11. Foundation (1951) > 12. Foundation and Empire (1952) > 13. Second Foundation (1953) > 14. Foundation's Edge (1982) > 15. Foundation and Earth (in progress) > > -- from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude (from the far future) for the entire series? -- Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation "All disclaimers including this one apply" (415) 960-9367 ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born, whence came creation? The gods are later than this world's formation; Who then can know the origins of the world? None knows whence creation arose; And whether he has or has not made it; He who surveys it from the lofty skies, Only he knows -- or perhaps he knows not. *The Rig Veda*, X. 129
john@hp-pcd.UUCP (john) (09/29/85)
<<<<< < < And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude < (from the far future) for the entire series? < Michael McNeil < End of Eternity starts in the far future but ends in the past just 20 years before Joseph Schwartz is sent to the future in "Pebble in the Sky". Its funny how he is sent to exactly the right place and time to prevent the destruction of the human race. You might think that someone was viewing alternate realities and decided to implement a change for the better. Perhaps in Foundation and Earth we will discover that the "Doll" that he stepped over was actually a time machine from Noyes and Andrew. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john