rjz@ihwpt.UUCP (R. Zurawski) (11/12/85)
The other day I took my car in to one of those 10 minute oil change places. I asked for 10W-40 oil. The guy who was servicing my car said that I should be using 10W-30. I was surprised by his suggestion. I thought that 10W-40 was an all season motor oil. He told me that 10W-40 oil was going to be phased out in about two years (by the oil makers) and that I should use 10W-30 all year round since I have an aluminum engine. He said that lately most auto manufacturers suggest 10W-30 for all year care. He suggested that I may want to use an oil like 15W-50 during the summer since I do a lot of highway driving, but 10W-30 was O.K. Also, the 10W-30 oil that they used was rated SE-SF-CC. I never heard of this rating. Questions: 1) What is this rating SE-SF-CC? 2) Is it true that 10W-40 will be phased out? 3) Is 10W-30 safe to use ALL year round? 4) If the answer to number 3 is "no", what oil should I use? Please kept the following in mind as you answer: I have an aluminum engine, I drive about 15,000 miles a year, 75% of my driving is at highway speeds (60+) and I live in the midwest. Thanks in advance. Bob Zurawski ...!ihnp4!ihexp!rjz
carlson@ssc-vax.UUCP (Lee R Carlson) (11/12/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH 5W-30 *** > Questions: > 1) What is this rating SE-SF-CC? > 2) Is it true that 10W-40 will be phased out? > 3) Is 10W-30 safe to use ALL year round? > 4) If the answer to number 3 is "no", what oil should I use? > > Please kept the following in mind as you answer: > I have an aluminum engine, I drive about 15,000 miles a year, > 75% of my driving is at highway speeds (60+) and I live in the midwest. > 1) SF - Current state-of-the-oil service grade. In order for oil to use SAE-API "SF" designation it must meet a bunch of specification that include viscocity stability, detergent content, and who knows what else. SE was the previous grade. SD, and SC were probably before that. CC and CD are designations pertainant to Diesel owners. 2) Probably. GM is now specifying 5W-30, 30, and 10W-30 oils in it's new cars. My '85 STE owner's manual makes mention of 10W-40 only to prohibit it's use. That may be for a Diesel application. The reason is 5W-30 and straight 30 are lower viscocity -> lower internal fluidic "friction" -> higher mileage. Also, GM is specifically excluding mention of 10W-40 to strong-arm the oil makers into offering 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils. 3) Look in your owner's manual. I think my STE manual suggests it. Your owner's manual should have some sort of a temp vs. viscocity graph. 4) A family friend is a real oil expert. He tells us to use 10W-30 in everything, including our 78 Vette. My question is: Anyone have any (non-synthetic) oil brand preference. My supply of Sears has run out. -- -- Lee Carlson -- Boeing Errorspace, Seattle ...{uw-beaver|fluke}!ssc-vax!carlson
osmigo@ut-ngp.UUCP (osmigo) (11/13/85)
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saf@bonnie.UUCP (Steve Falco) (11/13/85)
> 1) What is this rating SE-SF-CC? > 2) Is it true that 10W-40 will be phased out? > 3) Is 10W-30 safe to use ALL year round? > 4) If the answer to number 3 is "no", what oil should I use? 1) I believe SE and SF are gasoline engine ratings while CC is a diesel rating. In all cases it refers to the durability and lubrication capability of the oil. The auto manufacturers recommend a classification to use. For example, in '79, Chevy said use SE or better. They said don't use SE/CD (does anyone know if SE/CD is different from SE-CD??) 2) I have seen notices that GM no longer recommends 10W-40, they are switching to 10W-30. I don't know why. I also doubt that 10W-40 will become unavailable. 3) Again, check with the manufacturer. My Chevy can use 10W-30 most of the year but there are different recommendations for extreme climates. Steve Falco
osmigo@ut-ngp.UUCP (osmigo) (11/14/85)
The type of oil to use is one area where I WOULD follow the owner's manual to the letter. Read it. 10-40 may or may not be all-season, depending on what part of the country you live in, how cold it gets, etc. If it is indeed going to be "phased out" in a couple of years, you still have around 10 oil changes left (assuming you change your oil every 3000 or so miles, which I hope you do) before it happens. That's certainly no reason to avoid using it. 10-30 simply works within a considerably narrower temperature range than 10-40, that's all. The fact that you drive on the highway a lot isn't all that important. 99% o of your total lifetime engine wear occurs during the first 0 to 10 seconds of operation, when the oil is drained off the parts and you have pretty much raw metal rubbing against raw metal. As a general rule of thumb, you can say that each time you start your car, it produces the wear-equivalent of about 500 miles of driving. Engine wear on the highway (i.e., at normal operating temps) is, for all practical purposes, zero. That's why you see these traveling salesmen with 400K miles on their cars. As long as you change your oil regularly (AND the filter, for heaven's sakes) and use the correct oil, you're ok on the road. Regarding oil "grades," oils are rated from SA to SF as sort of a measure of general quality. SA to SD was used in older cars (your dad probably used it in his '54 chevy), and SD is still found in the form of cheap, non-detergent oils for things like lawn mowers. SF is the highest grade, for modern cars, and any oil labeled SF or SE/SF may be considered SF. The "CC" refers to the type of "duty" for which the oil was designed. CC oils are designed for normal use in gasoline-engine passenger cars and are usually OK for light diesel engines. "CD" is for heavy-duty diesel use, and is good for cars that seldom reach normal operating temperature, like police cars, taxicabs, or even your own car, if you seldom drive more than 5 miles after starting it. Some oils are rated "CC/CD," which is pretty darn tough oil. I would especially recco- mmend it if you're pulling a trailer. I know nothing about aluminum engines. In summary, why take a chance? Buy the best, most expensive oil you can find, and be sure you can find "SF" and "CD" somewhere on the can. Change the filter every time you change your oil. And CHECK THAT OWNER'S MANUAL! The above information is derived from a superb book on long-term car care entitled "Drive It Forever." I forget the author's name, but he is a former president of the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). Hope this is of some help. ...Ron Morgan ut-ngp.UTEXAS(osmigo) !stty kill 8 ut-ngp.UTEXAS(osmigo) *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
bruce@fluke.UUCP (Bruce Reynolds) (11/15/85)
Hello!
I have used only 20W-50 oil for the past ten years or so. According to my
Toyota owner's manuals, this is good protection down to 10F. And it sure
makes me *feel* more comfortable on really hot days in the summer.
If the tradeoff is thick oil & better protection versus thin oil & better
gas mileage, I would choose the better protection.
So what does everyone think? Nowadays, 15W-50 is available. Would that be
perfect?
--
--bruce
--
________________________________________________________________________
Bruce M. Reynolds {decvax,ihnp4}!uw-beaver!--\
John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. {sun,allegra}!---> fluke!bruce
(206) 356-5421 {ucbvax,hplabs}!lbl-csam!--/unpfc1@whuxl.UUCP (CALL) (11/15/85)
> Hello! > > I have used only 20W-50 oil for the past ten years or so. According to my > Toyota owner's manuals, this is good protection down to 10F. And it sure > makes me *feel* more comfortable on really hot days in the summer. > > If the tradeoff is thick oil & better protection versus thin oil & better > gas mileage, I would choose the better protection. > > So what does everyone think? Nowadays, 15W-50 is available. Would that be > perfect? HISTORY OF MOTOR OIL Quoted from RIDERANNUAL - 1984 "Back in the 1930's, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed service classifications for engine oils. The first were SA and SB. SA is for utility motors such as generators operating under low stress conditions. This classification has no performance requirements. An SA oil may have no additives at all, or it may contain pour and foam depressants, to preventthe oil from frothing inside the engine. SB is now described as a minimum duty oil for engines operating under such mild conditions that very little protection is required. SB oils provide only anti-scuff capability and resistance to oxidation and bearing corrosion. This is the kind of oil you might pour in your lawnmower today, but could never imagine putting in your car, let alone a motorcycle. Yet for three decades this type of oil was "the" standard motor oil. It was not until 1964 that SAE developed a superior oil classification :SC. Oils with this designation contain additives that help control high and low temperature deposits, wear, rust and corrosion. Oils meeting the SC standards were a significant step towards increasing the life of engines and meeting the needs of the powerful passenger car motors that were being produced during the heyday of the muscle cars. But they were not good enough. Just four years later, even tougher classification had to be developed: SD. These oils provided yet stronger protection against high and low temperature engine deposits, wear, rust and corrosion. The new classification should have been enough to last another 30 years. But Detroit makers began requiring stiffer oil abilities by 1971. Small cars were coming out of the factory doors in large numbers - Ford's Pinto and Chevy's Vega showed up around then. In addition more and more foreign cars with higher revving, small engines were appearing on our shores. These machines demanded a lot from an oil. So in 1972, the SAE came up with what they figured had to be the oil category to end all oil categories - SE. It provided yet more protection against oxidation high-temperature engine deposits, rust and corrosion. SE was the top oil classification during the 70's, but in 1980,it was replaced by the latest classification - SF. This oil provides even more protection - particularly against oxidation and wear. The "S" in these classifications stand for spark ignition - ie. gasoline engines. Classifications that start with "C" specify oils for diesel engines(C for compression ignition)." OIL VISCOSITY The numbers after the service classification refer to the viscosity of the oil which is a measure of its resistance to flow at certain temperatures. The numbers also give you an idea how thin the oil gets when it gets hot and how thick a layer of protecting slipperyness will stay between the moving metal parts in the engine. The "W" rating, accompanied by a lower number placed before it, is a measure of the flow rate at 0 degrees F. However this rating tells you more than just winter-time performance. It - more importantly - is a measure of its "startability" or how quickly it will flow to needed areas when the engine first cranks over. A low number before the "W" is not a bad idea anytime you care about limiting engine wear. GM OIL RECOMMENDATIONS I own a 1984 Chevy Celebrity with a 2.5L 4 cylinder engine. The recommendations for oil suggest 5W-30, SF classifications with 10W-30 as a second choice. I take these recommedations seriously and have found that Valvoline produces a 5W - 30 oil that can sometimes be purchased on sale. 10W-40 weight oil is specifically *NOT RECOMMENDED* according to the owners manual and to several mechanics I have querried on the subject. They seem to feel that the ability to quickly flow and protect camshaft bearings during startup is the reason for the recommendation. Hope this helps . Pete Call > > -- > --bruce > -- > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Bruce M. Reynolds {decvax,ihnp4}!uw-beaver!--\ > John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. {sun,allegra}!---> fluke!bruce > (206) 356-5421 {ucbvax,hplabs}!lbl-csam!--/ *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
gvcormack@watmum.UUCP (Gordon V. Cormack) (11/16/85)
> HISTORY OF MOTOR OIL > Quoted from RIDERANNUAL - 1984 > "Back in the 1930's, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed service > classifications for engine oils. The first were SA and SB. This history may be essentially true, but the names SA, SB, ... SE only came into use in the early 70s. Before then, the service categories used to label motor oil were ML, MM, and MS. MS was the best, and was required by all manufacturers. When the S categories came along, SD was said to be equivalent to MS. I don't know for sure the mapping between {ML, MM} and {SA, SB, SE}. The S stands for "spark" ignition (gasoline) engines. CC etc. is a similar set of scales for "compression" ignition (diesel) engines.
smh@mhuxl.UUCP (henning) (11/18/85)
**** **** From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA mhuxl!smh > HISTORY OF MOTOR OIL > Quoted from RIDERANNUAL - 1984 Thanks for this excellent article on SA-SF and CA-CD etc. BRAVO... Question: I have an air-cooled garden tractor engine that turns oil into "tar". Previously I used Sears Spectrum 10W-30 and it would turn to a thick tar like substance which took an hour to drain a quart from the crankcase. Now I use Quaker State 20W-50 motorcycle oil. The motorcycle oil is stable. Both oils are SD-SF:CC. Why is the motorcycle oil much more temperature stable or is temperature stability something not rated?
quint@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Amqueue) (11/18/85)
In article <622@bonnie.UUCP> saf@bonnie.UUCP (Steve Falco) writes: > >2) I have seen notices that GM no longer recommends 10W-40, they are > switching to 10W-30. I don't know why. I also doubt that 10W-40 > will become unavailable. > > Steve Falco As I understand it, 10W-30 is a lighter weight oil (less viscous?) and gives less resistance to the motin of various parts of the engine, thus increasing gas mileage. However, this also lubricates less well, and your engine will wear more than if you were using 10W-40. This is how it was explained to me when I asked, with the added comment that the increase in mileage was probably not worth the extra engine wear. I may be wrong; if I am, Im sure we will all find out! helpfully /amqueue quint@{topaz | red | green | blue | caip }.rutgers.edu seismo!{topaz | caip}!quint
pnovak@ihuxm.UUCP (paul novak) (11/18/85)
some recent postings have touched on GM's 5W-30/10W-30 oil recommendation, and left the impression that GM is doing this because it is better for your engine. don't believe it. what changed over a year ago is the EPA's regarding manufacturers oil recommendations. previously, a manufacturer could submit a car for EPA mileage testing with any oil in it and then recommend a different oil in the owner's manual. this is exactly what GM did: used 5W-30 oil for EPA mileage tests and recommending 10W-40 in the manual. Why? because the lower viscosity of 30 weight got epsilon more mileage than 40 weight, but 40 weight gives better engine protection. the EPA rule change told GM to recommend the oil they submitted for mileage testing in the owners manual. GM could either have submitted cars with 10W-40 or recommended 5W-30. only after the epa rule change did GM begin to circulate the cover story that 30 weight oil was better for your engine than 40 weight. popular mechanics had an article on the subject in the past year. their recommendation was to use the manufacturers recommended oil during the warranty period, and to use 10W-40 after the warranty period because it provided better protection. on cold chicago winter days, i'm glad that GM is forcing oil companies to produce 5W oil: it's becoming much more obtainable. but i wish they wouldn't lie about 30 wight oil being better than 40 weight. paul novak ihuxm!pnovak
unpfc1@whuxl.UUCP (CALL) (11/19/85)
> **** **** > From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA mhuxl!smh > > > HISTORY OF MOTOR OIL > > Quoted from RIDERANNUAL - 1984 > > Thanks for this excellent article on SA-SF and CA-CD etc. BRAVO... > > Question: > I have an air-cooled garden tractor engine that turns oil into "tar". > Previously I used Sears Spectrum 10W-30 and it would turn to a thick tar > like substance which took an hour to drain a quart from the crankcase. Now > I use Quaker State 20W-50 motorcycle oil. The motorcycle oil is stable. > Both oils are SD-SF:CC. Why is the motorcycle oil much more temperature > stable or is temperature stability something not rated? *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** The reasons motor oil turns to a "thick tar-like substance" is at best a complicated affair brought on by a combination of conditions which include: operating the engine at *less than* optimum temperature and too many operating hours between oil changes. In the first case the mixture will be richer and the combustion more incomplete. More by-product acids, unburned fuel and burned fuel deposits are deposited in the motor-oil. After a short period of time, the detergents and dispersents present in today's oils(they help keep the crud in suspension) are used up, and the oil starts to gum things up. Worn rings have much the same effect on oils. Also, the molecules in oil wear out, combining with oxygen in a slow burning process. As the oil molecules attach themselves to more oxygen molecules, they get thicker -ie. they get larger and larger. So, oil that is saturated with deposits and has been largely oxidized comes out very dark and very thick. Engines that are operated at higher than normal temperatures (lean gas air-gas mixture) oxidize oils more quickly despite additives to prevent molecular breakdown. Motocycle oil is formulated to deal with ranges of temperatures and other unique operating parameters(motorcycle oils are designed to lubricate transmissions *and* engine parts at the same time) not found in the automotive world and is therefore superior to automotive oils (and sells for a superior price). This may be the reason why it doesn't breakdown as quickly in your mower. But all oil does eventually "die" so change it often. Pete Call Bell Labs - Morristown
pat@alice.UucP (q) (11/19/85)
testing
dennis@vrdxhq.UUCP (R. Dennis Gibbs) (11/20/85)
In article <2435@cal-dbb.fluke.UUCP>, bruce@fluke.UUCP (Bruce Reynolds) writes: > > I have used only 20W-50 oil for the past ten years or so. According to my > Toyota owner's manuals, this is good protection down to 10F. And it sure > makes me *feel* more comfortable on really hot days in the summer. > > If the tradeoff is thick oil & better protection versus thin oil & better > gas mileage, I would choose the better protection. > > So what does everyone think? Nowadays, 15W-50 is available. Would that be > perfect? > > -- > --bruce > -- > Bruce M. Reynolds {decvax,ihnp4}!uw-beaver!--\ > John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. {sun,allegra}!---> fluke!bruce > (206) 356-5421 {ucbvax,hplabs}!lbl-csam!--/ I don't think the tradeoff you mention is valid anymore. What's really important is how much temperature/pressure a given lubricant can take without oxidizing excessively. This is where synthetics excel. I would hate to think what's happening in your Toyota's engine when it is 20 degrees F outside and you have 20W-50 in your crankcase. It will take considerably longer for 20W-50 oil to begin circulating readily at that temperature than a 5W-30 would. Since the vast majority of engine wear occurs at startup, you want to avoid having an oil of high viscosity during low ambient temperatures. The above only addresses one aspect (engine wear) that a motor oil must provide. Dennis Gibbs
rjs@hpfcla.UUCP (11/20/85)
>2. What, if anything, can you do with a standard engine to reduce or > avoid such damage? Is there any easy way to get the oil to the > parts before they need it? a) Some recommend cranking the engine for a couple of seconds BEFORE depressing the accerator (setting the choke). Obviously this method will not work for cars with electronic fuel injection where the "choke" is electronically controlled. b) Synthetic oils claim to reduce this type of wear. Bob Schneider ...!ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfcll!rjs
grd@ihu1e.UUCP (daly) (11/26/85)
After doing extensive research for a major oil company in heavy oils, I can
say that the number one ingredient is NOT viscosity in oils. Viscosity can
be thought of as a catalyst as it helps the oils keep their lubricative
capabilities. E.P. additives (Excessive Pressure), constitute what will
make or break a given oil. I am not saying that you shouldn't look at
viscosity when buying engine. I use 10W-40. The 40 weight works well in
the summer and the 10 weight works will in the winter. I also change my
oil at approximately 3,000 mile intervals and have many cars that go
well over 80,000 miles without engine overhaul. I feel the automakers are
misrepresenting the facts on oil changes. Its true that base oils will
not break down in 3,000 miles and probably last to 7,500 miles, but what
they don't tell you is that the additives will NOT last that long.
So in summary, I recommend running year round with a name brand 10W40 oil.
I don't use 5W oil because this could lead to problems during the summer
if the viscosity agent breaks down.
Garry Daly -- ihu1e!grdseifert@hammer.UUCP (Snoopy) (11/29/85)
In article <72800003@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >> 99% of your total lifetime engine wear occurs during the first 0 to 10 >> seconds of operation, when the oil is drained off the parts and you have >> pretty much raw metal rubbing against raw metal. > ... Or why isn't there some mechanism which, when you turn on the > starter, first pumps up some oil for 2-3 seconds before kicking over > the engine? Granted, we're talking about added complexity, but it > sounds justified in this case. You can buy such a device, and plumb it into your car. It stores a quart or so of oil under pressure, which you can release before starting the car. These can also be rigged to release if the oil pressure drops, say if you are doing a sustained high-g corner and the oil goes away from the pickup. In addition to added complexity, it's added expense, added weight, and added stuff to find room for under the hood. Seems like the easy way to take care of the first problem is to use an electric oil pump, and switch it on a few seconds before starting the engine. (If you're worried about an electric fuel pump failing, hook up something to kill the ignition/fuel pump if the oil pressure is low for 'n' seconds) But this isn't really needed, as engines tend to outlast the body. (Even if you don't live in the salt belt, er, snow belt, there's all those bozos running into you) Snoopy (ECS Ronin #901) tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy
eproj@burl.UUCP (eproj) (12/03/85)
> In article <72800003@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: > >> 99% of your total lifetime engine wear occurs during the first 0 to 10 > >> seconds of operation, when the oil is drained off the parts and you > >> have pretty much raw metal rubbing against raw metal. I have heard of this problem also. So, a couple of years ago I took a gamble after reading an article on Slick 50 and treated my engine with it. At first I was skeptical about all the claims they made concerning the use of this product, but when I experienced a 15 to 20 mile per tankful increase in gas milege, I was slightly impressed. The manufactures of Slick 50 also state that the problem of wear caused by the absence of oil at start-up is reduced because their product coats the engine with a super slick substance (can't think of the correct name) that will decrease wear during start-up. My engine is still running so what can I say? If it continues to function after 120,000 miles I'll be satisfied. Any other people out there familiar with this product? so long, Dave
bright@dataioDataio.UUCP (Walter Bright) (12/05/85)
In article <72800003@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >> 99% of your total lifetime engine wear occurs during the first 0 to 10 >> seconds of operation, when the oil is drained off the parts and you have >> pretty much raw metal rubbing against raw metal. Close. Also, most engine wear occurs before it is fully warmed up (about 3 to 14 miles of driving). The engine is designed so that all the clearances and fit of parts is right when the engine is at normal operating temperature. >1. Why aren't engines designed differently (somehow) so that isn't > true? Or why isn't there some mechanism which, when you turn on the > starter, first pumps up some oil for 2-3 seconds before kicking over > the engine? Granted, we're talking about added complexity, but it > sounds justified in this case. It would only partially work. Rotating bearings are designed to 'fly' on a film of oil so that there is no actual metal-to-metal contact. The flying cannot occur until the engine is brought up to speed. Also, the motion of the engine itself is necessary to get the oil everywhere, not just the fuel pump. >2. What, if anything, can you do with a standard engine to reduce or > avoid such damage? Is there any easy way to get the oil to the > parts before they need it? Drive the car at least once a week. Oil takes quite a while to drain off surfaces. Change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. I know the owner's manual says 7000. Doing this cheap and simple thing will do more to extend your engine life than anything else. Do not rev the engine immediately upon startup. Go easy on the gas pedal until you've driven a few miles. Don't let the engine warm up at idle. The engine isn't turning fast enough to oil itself properly. If you live in a very cold area, buy an engine block heater.