junk@ur-tut.UUCP (Jan Vandenbrande) (03/06/86)
.... First of all I want to thank everybody for the helpfull responces about this subject. The question initially asked was whether there was a difference between the various oil filters on the market. Some filters (namely those that are supplied by the VW-Audi & Honda (?) dealers) seem to have some springloaded mechanism, while other brands do not. Well here is a brief summary on the responces: 1] The springloaded mechanism is a bypass valve. In case the filter gets clogged the filter will be bypassed. Better to have dirty oil circulating than no oil at all. Another person suggested that the valve serves to keep the oil in the circuits after shut off. At start-up the oil would be immediatly available. 2] There is a general distrust for filters sold by Sears etc. The only filter that kind off stood out were the filters made by FRAM. One claimed that they too have such a relief valve for the VW & Honda models. One person complained that the non-brand name filters (including FRAM) are not build as sturdily, and that he has to retorque them soon after an oil change. Conclusion: I am going to wait until FRAM filters are on sale, and disect one. I am also going to disect a regular VW filter and see how they differ. I guess when you don't think that your filter gets clogged, that bypass valve is not doing much. So normally it seems that there should not be much harm to use a non-dealer filter if you change your oil frequently. However, what are a few dollars compared to the potential engine damage? How about "hidden" guarantees. If something breaks, and you haven't used their stuff (even though unrelated issues) they might just void your "hidden" warantee. In the mean time I am going to stick to the dealer's oil filters. Thanks for your replies, Jan.
mberns@ut-ngp.UUCP (Mark Bernstein) (03/07/86)
**
I may get flamed for this, but I wonder if one can easily go a bit too
far, in a realistic sense, worrying about some of this.
Under virtually all normal conditions, with a normal car, *changing the
oil frequently* (or at least as per mfrs.' recommendations), it seems
rather far-fetched to imagine that an oil filter will get clogged up
so badly as to literally stop the flow of oil. I wonder if mfrs. use
bypass valve type filters precisely because they KNOW that MANY people
AREN'T going to change their oil/filters as often as they should. YOU
shouldn't worry about this; my dad (who can go 2 years before
remembering that, gee, I ought to have the oil changed), for instance,
should. With all due respect, I really do think that provided you do
change the oil and filter regularly there might be other, more important
things to worry about re: your car (e.g. which tires to buy), and that it
is silly to spend more money for the dealer's filter. Fram, AC,
Purolator, etc. ought to do just fine. Who do you think makes the
filters that the dealer sells (for more $), anyway?
Apart from the presence or absence of the bypass valve, I seriously
doubt that opening several filters for examination is going to reveal
anything meaningful that will affect a decision one way or the other.
Unless you're an automotive engineer. What do you expect to find?
And even then, as I've indicated above, if you're conscientious about
regular maintenance, the risk of ANY kind of engine damage due to using
a filter other than the dealer's seems infinitesimal.
--
Mark Bernstein, Univ of Texas at Austin, Speech Communication, Austin 78712
ARPA: mberns@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!mberns allegra!ut-ngp!mberns gatech!ut-ngp!mberns
seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mberns harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mbernsjin@hropus.UUCP (Bear) (03/10/86)
It's my impression that the bypass valve in an oil filter not only serves to keep the oil flowing when the filter is clogged but it serves to keep the oil flowing under low temperature conditions. Not being an "expert" I don't know if this is true or makes sense. Yes, I agree that tires etc. are more important, but discussion of "minor" parts is networthy. -- Jerry Natowitz ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jin (official) ihnp4!opus!jin (temporary) Institute for the Study of Non-existent Phenomena
ugzannin@sunybcs.UUCP (Adrian Zannin) (03/11/86)
> Under virtually all normal conditions, with a normal car, *changing the > oil frequently* (or at least as per mfrs.' recommendations), it seems > rather far-fetched to imagine that an oil filter will get clogged up [] I always cringe when I hear people say that you should follow the manufacturer's guidlines for when to change the oil and filter. First, whenever you change the oil, you *must* change the filter too, even if it isn't plugged solid. The oil filter will hold about a quart of dirty oil, which will defeat the whole purpose of changing the oil. It will only contaminate the old oil. The old myth about "it's ok to change the filter every other time" is just that, a myth. Second, you should *NEVER*, yes, *NEVER*, follow the manufacturer's recommendations on the amout of mileage between oil changes. Many car manufacturers suggest changing the oil around 10,000 miles. To anyone that knows about engine wear, this is rediculous! You should *never* leave the same oil in the car for more that 3,000 *maximum*. For many smaller engines, it is wise to change it every 2500 miles. I know it sounds like a pain in the neck to chage the oil that often, but when your car gets up around 70,000 miles, you'll see how it pays off. My car (a Toyota Corolla SR-5) has 94,000 miles on it and still has yet to use (ie burn, leak) a drop of oil... -- Adrian Zannin SUNY at Buffalo Computer Science ..{bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksvax,watmath,sbcs}!sunybcs!ugzannin CSNET: ugzannin@Buffalo.CSNET ARPANET: ugzannin%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA BITNET: ugzannin@sunybcs.BITNET
mberns@ut-ngp.UUCP (Mark Bernstein) (03/12/86)
** Xref: ut-sally net.auto:8469 net.auto.tech:925 > It's my impression that the bypass valve in an oil filter not only > serves to keep the oil flowing when the filter is clogged ... .... > Yes, I agree that tires etc. are more important, but > discussion of "minor" parts is networthy. ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^ -- > Jerry Natowitz Since this is apparently in reaction to my posting on this subject, let me reply briefly: I did not in any way mean to suggest that discussion of "minor" parts (and I'm not sure I'd call an oil filter by that term, in any case) is not networthy. Only that perhaps a person can (should?) pick and choose which aspects of maintaining or equipping a car should be of MAJOR concern, worry, research, and agony. And that, in my view, one needn't worry very much about the potential for disaster for the engine if one uses a *regular brand-name* filter rather than the dealer's, and changes it regularly. In short, my response was intended to say "...not to worry", rather than to suggest that this wasn't worth discussing on the net. Sorry for any misunderstanding. -- Mark Bernstein, Univ of Texas at Austin, Speech Communication, Austin 78712 ARPA: mberns@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!mberns allegra!ut-ngp!mberns gatech!ut-ngp!mberns seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mberns harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mberns
hedden@atux01.UUCP (D. Hedden) (03/14/86)
In article <2925@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugzannin@sunybcs.UUCP (Adrian Zannin) writes: > > ... *changing the > > oil frequently* (or at least as per mfrs.' recommendations) > I always cringe when I hear people say that you should follow the > manufacturer's guidlines for when to change the oil and filter. First, > whenever you change the oil, you *must* change the filter too, even if it > isn't plugged solid. The oil filter will hold about a quart of dirty oil, > which will defeat the whole purpose of changing the oil. It will only > contaminate the old [sic] oil. ... > ... Many car > manufacturers suggest changing the oil around 10,000 miles. To anyone > that knows about engine wear, this is rediculous! You should *never* > leave the same oil in the car for more that 3,000 *maximum*. For many > smaller engines, it is wise to change it every 2500 miles. I know it > sounds like a pain in the neck to chage the oil that often, but when > your car gets up around 70,000 miles, you'll see how it pays off. My car > (a Toyota Corolla SR-5) has 94,000 miles on it and still has yet to > use (ie burn, leak) a drop of oil... Adrian, I have to agree with you about the futility of changing oil and leaving a quart of dirty oil in the filter. However, I have to ask "How do you know your car wouldn't have done just as well with much less frequent oil changes?" Your posting implies that you have changed the oil and filter every 2500-3000 miles, and that you have had satisfaction from the car's not developing excessive (any) oil consumption. But you don't say that you tried it the other way and had bad results :-). I know most of us don't have money to do that sort of experimenting, but I have had some experience in that area. The last four cars I have had got oil changes most of the time between 5000 and 10000 miles. This wasn't by choice, it was just that my wife was the only one that drove them and she didn't pay attention to milage for maintenance purposes, so things got done only when I happened to notice that it had been a long time since the last time. Each of these cars was sold with more than 150,000 miles on them, and no oil problems. This doesn't mean that I advocate this sort of abuse of engines, or believe that this indicates all cars would do this well with care coming this infrequently. It is just saying that for these four part- icular cars, the results were ok. Incidentally, I change the oil and filter in my motorcycle, which is my primary mode of transportation, about every 1500 miles. My current one is 12 years old with 143,000 miles, and has yet to need any repair to the drive train. "The moving hand writes ..." Don
mberns@ut-ngp.UUCP (Mark Bernstein) (03/14/86)
**
On the same idea, but with a reverse twist: I changed the oil and
filter in my 73 BMW 2002 religiously every 3500 or 4000 miles. I
babied that engine for the eight years I had the car. And
guess what? By around 96,000 miles I was throwing enough blue smoke
on deceleration to require an engine overhaul.
Anyone care to generalize from *that* experience??? :-)
[I know, I know.... Someone's going to say "what did you expect from
THAT car?" :-) ]
--
Mark Bernstein, Univ of Texas at Austin, Speech Communication, Austin 78712
ARPA: mberns@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!mberns allegra!ut-ngp!mberns gatech!ut-ngp!mberns
seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mberns harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mbernsjimv@apollo.uucp (James Vienneau) (03/18/86)
> I always cringe when I hear people say that you should follow the > manufacturer's guidlines for when to change the oil and filter. First, > whenever you change the oil, you *must* change the filter too, even if it > isn't plugged solid. The oil filter will hold about a quart of dirty oil, > which will defeat the whole purpose of changing the oil. It will only > contaminate the old oil. The old myth about "it's ok to change the filter > every other time" is just that, a myth. > Second, you should *NEVER*, yes, *NEVER*, follow the manufacturer's > recommendations on the amout of mileage between oil changes. Many car What you say here USED to be true. Todays engines and SF rated oils are far superior to what was around just 15 years ago. If anything, the recent articles I have read, indicate that the car manufacturers are CONSERVATIVE in their change intervals. Mobil publishes an excellent book on lubricants. Its 200-300 pages and sells for around $30.00. As far as oil filters holding a quart of oil, thats no longer true in MOST cases either. Most of todays cars have downsized filters that hold maybe a pint and several are mounted horozontally so the oil drains back into the engine when shutoff. You can credit the EPA (for requiring unleaded gas) for a great deal of the increase in change intervals. Lead was great for some things, but contaminated oil quickly. I change my oil and filter every 12,000 miles and have driven every car I own (all GM) to >110,000 miles with no internal engine failures. I do use Mobil 1 synthetic oil, but thats another story. ( 2 mpg boost w/Mobil 1 ) One other note, for an oil filter to say it meets manufacturers specifications, it MUST contain a pressure relief valve and filter all particles over x microns. Buying a manufacturers filter will not buy you anything over a good name brand (Fram, Purolator, Hastings, etc.) filter. For the average person who plans on keeping their car <125,000 miles, does'nt tow anything and does'nt spend most of their time in city traffic and uses conventional name brand oil, I would reccommend changes at the manufacturers intervals with the oil filter replaced, chassis greased and tires rotated at each interval. This is the regiment that was followed on my wife's 76 Nova with 133,000 miles thats still going strong today. Just another mans opinions............................
J9N@PSUVM.BITNET (03/23/86)
My last car, purchased new by my father in 1967, was a Chevy Malibu
Lines: 5
Xref: cbosgd net.auto:11325 net.auto.tech:964
wagon with a 283 V8 engine and Powerglide transmission. My father faithfully
changed the oil every 2000 miles.
The car died when it was rusted beyond repair; the engine was still going
strong after 234,000 miles......