praetorius@vaxwrk.DEC (10/21/85)
Length: short first part (15 lines) ; long, high temperature second part (~90)
I have found that when I run the following ABasiC program (taken from
an originally meaningful context but now reduced to absurdity),
10 Def FNa$(i%) = Str$(i%)
20 Print FNa$(-1 \ &H1000000)
I get a requester complaining about task held. The shell (if you want to call
it that) in my other screen still works, but I haven't yet found the command
for eradicating my ABasiC task. If I tell the requester to retry, it comes
right back - if I tell it to continue, it zeroes my uptime the long way.
(I've reported both bugs to . . .!pyramid!amiga!support).
Any suggestions from people with development kits?
Robt. P.
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From: LATOUR::BANKS "Dawn Banks" 21-OCT-1985 11:27
Subj: FLAME.TXT
Forwarded-by: me again
On the subject of getting a developer's kit:
I called Amiga (or was that Commodore? (anyway, it was that tech support number
ending in something like 9180)) last week, and asked about getting documenta-
tion and/or developer's kit.
At first, the person I talked to wasn't sure what I wanted, then wasn't sure if
anyone was in who could answer the question. After being left on hold for
about 5 minutes, they finally got back on, and tried unsuccessfully to transfer
the call two or three times. After no success at that, they told me that the
responsible person wasn't there, and that I should try later. I asked for a
name to ask for when I called back, and got an "I don't know" back. Then, they
asked me for my name, and transferred me to someone who did seem to know what a
developer's kit was. The conversation went something like:
Me: Hi. I'd like to get some documentation at the minimum, and a developer's
kit if possible. How much money do you want, and where do I send it?
Amiga: Wait! First, have you sent us a letter?
Me: No, because I don't have an address to send it to yet. What letter?
Amiga: You have to send us a letter telling us what products you have
successfully marketed in the past, what you think you're going to sell for the
Amiga, and why it'll be different from everyone else's product.
Me: Is it possible to get any documentation without such a letter?
Amiga: No.
Me: Well, that sounds nice, but I/we aren't in this to sell anything. Perhaps
if I wrote something really neat I'd try to sell it, but it ain't on the
horizon.
Amiga (sounding a bit edgy): Well, you can't have a developer's kit then.
Me: How about any documentation?
Amiga (starting to sound mean): No.
Me: Well, what am I supposed to do with this machine then if I have no
documentation or software tools?
Amiga: What do you mean? Isn't Basic good enough?
Me: No. I like writing assembly language. It's a hobby. I also like writing
terminal emulators. I have this machine that I'm all set to write a VT-240
emulator for, and nothing to do it with. Trying to write assembly code with a
Basic interpreter is tedious to say the least.
Amiga (very hostile by now): Well, if you're not out to sell software for the
Amiga, you have no business getting a developer's kit. That software isn't for
end users. Wait a few weeks, and your local dealer might have a subset of the
documentation from the Developer's kit.
Me: How about an assembler?
Amiga: I don't know.
I guess the reader can glean from this dialogue that I'm not entirely
pleased with Commodore's attitude towards their users. Frankly, I don't
understand why companies are so hesitant to take your money away from you
anymore, and this is just another example. Had I been the one who plunked down
the bucks for this machine, I'd be raising h___ with Commodore right now, but
as it is, my significant other (who seems perfectly happy writing disassembler
hacks in ABasic) is the one who paid for this, and seems perfectly happy
starting at ground zero. So, for the time, we get to read disassembled
versions of some of the system utilities, and try to figure out how the
operating system interface works. Very tedious at best, but at least we can
blab to our heart's content about anything we find out, since we didn't sign
any non-disclosure agreements (presumed procedure for obtaining a developer's
kit), and it doesn't say anything about not doing that in the documentation we
did get.
If I get too frustrated with this, and if the subset which is to arrive in
the stores soon doesn't cover everything the developer's kit does, I may be
inclined to copy some anonymous developer's documentation, make up a
nondisclosure agreement and send it to Commodore with $300 or so. I don't want
to do anything blatantly illegal, but I really don't understand why Commodore
seems to want to keep useful information from their end users.
Dawn Banks
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(DEC E-NET) VAXWrk::Praetorius
(UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxwrk!praetorius
(ARPA) praetorius%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPAknf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) (10/22/85)
>On the subject of getting a developer's kit: >I called Amiga (or was that Commodore? (anyway, it was that tech support number >ending in something like 9180)) last week, and asked about getting documenta- >tion and/or developer's kit. ... > I guess the reader can glean from this dialogue that I'm not entirely >pleased with Commodore's attitude towards their users. >...If I get too frustrated with this, and if the subset which is to arrive in >the stores soon doesn't cover everything the developer's kit does, I may be >inclined to copy some anonymous developer's documentation, make up a >nondisclosure agreement and send it to Commodore with $300 or so. I don't want >to do anything blatantly illegal, but I really don't understand why Commodore >seems to want to keep useful information from their end users. > > Dawn Banks Well, the reasoning behind this goes as follows: Amiga wants to best support those who will help the Amiga. The best way to help the Amiga, being a soft- wareless machine, is to put more software on the market. The developer's kit is NOT just a bundle of information: it is a commitment on Amiga's part to give future support on a personalized basis, in the form of updates and information as they become available. Amiga does NOT make money on these kits: they are an expense! It costs considerably more to research, publish, and distribute this information than they charge for it. It is also a one-time fee- as more stuff comes out, new releases of development software, etc. they will NOT charge more for it. The "casual" user who isn't planning to put anything on the market should get this information from developers on his own, or from users groups, documentation on the market, etc. Keep in mind Amiga is NOT trying to keep its information to a select few, they are trying to keep the cost of supporting developers to a minimum. (And ask Apple, that cost is HIGH!) '`'` Ken `'`' ...(mtuxo|ihnp4)!drutx!druxo!knf
tdn@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Newton) (10/24/85)
] Well, the reasoning behind this goes as follows: Amiga wants to best support
] those who will help the Amiga. The best way to help the Amiga, being a
] softwareless machine, is to put more software on the market. The developer's
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why is only commercial software important? What about public-domain software
and shareware (commercial software sold through non-traditional channels)? If
you take a look at the Mac, you'll see quite a few public-domain, copyrighted-
but-free, and shareware programs that are in common use -- BinHex 4.0, PACKIT,
FreeTerm, Red Ryder, MockWrite, MultiScrap, and SkipFinder 5.1 among them. It
is my opinion that SkipFinder is one of the most useful programs on the Mac --
even though it is not sold through commercial channels (early versions didn't
ask for money; the latest version asks you to send what you think its worth,
and the message is cleverly placed in a dialog box that you will eventually
see if you use the program but which doesn't hit you in the face every time).
And in fact, the Amiga is not a softwareless machine. It has a C compiler and
other development software which end users obviously want to obtain. It seems
to me that Commodore should be rushing to sell developers kits through retail
outlets. If cost is a problem, perhaps a slightly different arrangement could
be worked out for end users, such as charging a nominal fee (the cost of disks,
photocopying, and postage) for updates or distributing updates through dealers
for free the way that Apple did with MacWrite and MacPaint.
] kit is NOT just a bundle of information: it is a commitment on Amiga's part
] to give future support on a personalized basis, in the form of updates and
] information as they become available. Amiga does NOT make money on these
] kits: they are an expense! It costs considerably more to research, publish,
] and distribute this information than they charge for it.
Documenting the operating system and hardware is a necessary expense for ANY
machine -- whether or not the documentation is available to end users.
] It is also a one-time fee- as more stuff comes out, new releases of
] development software, etc. they will NOT charge more for it.
Don't be so sure that Commodore will supply you with all of the promised
updates. Apple is still updating the programs in the Software Supplement,
but they are not sending the updates to purchasers of the Supplement. To
get the updates, one must download them from Compuserve (at $12.75/hour),
and each of the Supplement files is labeled with a notice that would seem
to prohibit giving copies to other people to save them the download costs.
Fortunately, it looks as if the situation is getting better -- I saw a message
on net.micro.mac today that suggested that all future Supplement updates will
be posted to USENET as well as to Compuserve, with Apple's blessings. On the
other hand, although my copy of the Megamax C compiler doesn't promise FREE
updates forever, the $15 fee for updating to the latest version is low enough
to make it worthwhile for major updates and high enough so that Megamax isn't
losing money with each update shipped (especially since they reuse the disks).
] The "casual" user who isn't planning to
] put anything on the market should get this information from developers on
] his own, or from users groups, documentation on the market, etc. Keep in
] mind Amiga is NOT trying to keep its information to a select few, they are
] trying to keep the cost of supporting developers to a minimum. (And ask
] Apple, that cost is HIGH!)
How many developers in the business of producing commercial software will be
willing to provide information to end users? Let's see, I'll just call up EA
and ask them for a copy of the Hardware Manual. . . As far as documentation
on the market goes, I haven't yet seen any documentation for the ATARI 800
that is as complete as the "Operating System Reference Manual and Hardware
Manual" published by ATARI or any documentation published for the Macintosh
that is as complete as "Inside Mac". And I wouldn't want to depend upon the
existence and quality of a users group for basic system documentation, even
assuming that Commodore allowed wholesale copying of the manuals/software in
their development kit.
-- Thomas Newton
Thomas.Newton@spice.cs.cmu.edupeter@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (10/25/85)
> information as they become available. Amiga does NOT make money on these kits: > they are an expense! It costs considerably more to research, publish, and > distribute this information than they charge for it. It is also a one-time > fee- as more stuff comes out, new releases of development software, etc. they > will NOT charge more for it. Then they bloody well better make the same basic system available without the "commitment" BS. As of now the only way to develop software for the AMIGA seems to be to become a "developer". This is ridiculous. Speaking of apple: remember how much stuff has been written for the // by hobbyists? Remember how much all that software helps sell apple's machines? If they were serious about making this a popular machine they would *at the very least* have supplied an assembler with the box. Just because IBM didn't doesn't mean it's not a good idea. -- Name: Peter da Silva Graphic: `-_-' UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter
steve@wlbr.UUCP (Steve Childress) (10/29/85)
In article <1024@druxo.UUCP>, knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) writes: > ... The "casual" user who isn't planning to put > anything on the market should get this information from developers on his > own, or from users groups, documentation on the market, etc. Keep in mind > Amiga is NOT trying to keep its information to a select few, they are trying > to keep the cost of supporting developers to a minimum. (And ask Apple, that > cost is HIGH!) > '`'` > Ken > `'`' > ...(mtuxo|ihnp4)!drutx!druxo!knf Ken -- Would you please convey your qualifications as a non-employee of Commodore which enable you to keep us so well informed of their company policy? If you are really privy to this info, great. But please clarify for us your access to policy makers of stature. Regards, Steve Childress {trwrb, scgvaxd, ihnp4, voder, vortex} !wlbr!steve or ...wlbr!wlbreng1!steve
knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) (10/29/85)
>> ... The "casual" user who isn't planning to put >> anything on the market should get this information from developers on his >> own, or from users groups, documentation on the market, etc. Keep in mind >> Amiga is NOT trying to keep its information to a select few, they are trying >> to keep the cost of supporting developers to a minimum. (And ask Apple, that >> cost is HIGH!) >> '`'` >> Ken >> `'`' >> ...(mtuxo|ihnp4)!drutx!druxo!knf >Ken -- Would you please convey your qualifications as a non-employee of > Commodore which enable you to keep us so well informed of their > company policy? If you are really privy to this info, great. But > please clarify for us your access to policy makers of stature. > > > Regards, > Steve Childress > {trwrb, scgvaxd, ihnp4, voder, vortex} !wlbr!steve > or ...wlbr!wlbreng1!steve I have no connection with Amiga-- I have connections through a roommate in Apple support, and have been involved with several software/hardware development efforts. If you can't use common sense to admit that I made a point, stop flaming. I do not feel I have to defend myself or even stick a disclaimer tag on anything I put on the net, as long as I make a valid point. If you want to argue with my point, fine. If you just want to be an a*****e, feel free, but this is the last time I'll defend myself. If I'm wrong about Commmodore's objective, let them say something, they're on this net, too. I feel that the purpose of developer support is to get the info fastest to those who will give the most support back, and the make the rest of the information available through indirect (store) channels. Sincerely yours, Ken P.S. what give you the right to come across with such a righteous attitude across the net?