mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (12/11/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** I hear it from extremely good authority that CardCo, a company that has made lots of peripherals for the Commodore 64 will be introducing a 1MB expansion card for the AMIGA for the price of $195 or $295. I understand that multiple boards can be used to expand past 1MB. Supposedly, there is a prototype board at the FCC right now, so it should be soon. I really think the AMIGA is the machine to end all machines, but we users should do our best to make sure that thieves like Tecmar do not overprice the peripherals, making a system prohibitive to the average home consumer and small business user. I think we should wait for Cardco's board and make Tecmar eat as many boards as they make. I also hear that Commodore is planning to drop the price of the Amiga after Christmas. Commodore and Amiga have done everything in their power to not make the same MISTAKES as Apple (JokeIntosh) and IBM (PC = pretty crummy). Just because a 512K Amiga cries out desparately for more RAM doesn't mean that we need to pay for 5 MB and get 1MB. I also think that for $1500, we should be able to buy a 140MB hard disk. I know for a fact that Priam makes 140MB disks for well under $1000.
mats@fortune.UUCP (Mats Wichmann) (12/19/85)
Now hold on here!!! I am no great fan of Tecmar's - I used to compete with them in the S-100 board business before they started selling PC boards instead (and making quite a bit of money I might add), and maybe their prices for Amiga peripherals are too high, but some of this is getting out of hand.... > > I hear it from extremely good authority that CardCo, a company that has > made lots of peripherals for the Commodore 64 will be introducing a 1MB > expansion card for the AMIGA for the price of $195 or $295. I understand > that multiple boards can be used to expand past 1MB. Supposedly, there is > a prototype board at the FCC right now, so it should be soon. > Okay. Imagine buying enough 256k chips to make up a 1 meg board - without parity checking that's 32 chips. Add support circuitry and cost of making, stuffing, and testing the board (they DO test the boards, I hope :-) ), the cost of a 1 MB board has got to be $150. Out of the margin between that price and what it sells for has to come the company's operating costs plus profit, AND their has to be room for distributor/dealer discounts. There is just no way a 1 MB board can sell for $195. Personally, I think around $1000 is a fair price, but I won't quibble that. Just try to be realistic. > > I really think the AMIGA is the machine to end all machines, but we users > should do our best to make sure that thieves like Tecmar do not overprice > the peripherals, making a system prohibitive to the average home consumer and > small business user. I think we should wait for Cardco's board and make > Tecmar eat as many boards as they make. > The system itself is an amazing buy, and I agree that there is no reason to pay outrageous prices for add-ons, but keep some reason in your thinking when you determine what a fair price for something is. > > I also hear that Commodore is planning to drop the price of the Amiga after > Christmas. Commodore and Amiga have done everything in their power to not > make the same MISTAKES as Apple (JokeIntosh) and IBM (PC = pretty crummy). > Just because a 512K Amiga cries out desparately for more RAM doesn't mean > that we need to pay for 5 MB and get 1MB. > > I also think that for $1500, we should be able to buy a 140MB hard disk. I > know for a fact that Priam makes 140MB disks for well under $1000. > Absolutely under no circumstances do they have 140 MB disks for under $1000. It may be that they offer such prices to large OEM customers (I presume you are talking about the Vertex disks, although Vertex is part of Priam now), in VERY large volumes - on the order of tens of thousands of units. Retail price for those drive is somewhere from $2500 to $3500 maybe even higher; don't expect to see them sold for under $2000 anytwhere, and that's just the drive - no provision for controllers, power, or anything like that. Don't confuse prices offered to large-volume manufacturers with prices a retail buyer can expect to see. Once again, people are in this business to make a profit. Selling things at cost will not keep a business around very long, not in an area where continuing R&D is so important and where the margins necessarily have to be high. If you are running a food store, you don't have to develop your next line of products - all you do is resell goodies your distributor brings you. If you make computer equipment and don't budget for the future, you will be around for a very short time. Mats Wichmann Fortune Systems {ihnp4,hplabs,dual}!fortune!mats
mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (12/24/85)
> Now hold on here!!! > > I am no great fan of Tecmar's - I used to compete with them in > the S-100 board business before they started selling PC boards > instead (and making quite a bit of money I might add), and maybe > their prices for Amiga peripherals are too high, but some of this is > getting out of hand.... > > Mats Wichmann > Fortune Systems > {ihnp4,hplabs,dual}!fortune!mats Commodore's new Amiga computer may be the most technologically advanced personal computer for under $5000, but it may have some problems succeeding in the marketplace. The Amiga is being marketed as two different machines, a $1295 machine that plugs in to a TV and plays the best games ever, and a REAL EXPENSIVE business machine. The problem is that the Amiga is not equipped to really compete against the Atari ST (vs. the $1295 Amiga) or the IBM PC and clones. The Atari ST is actually an EXCELLENT purchase as a home computer, and actually runs circles around the Amiga performance-wise. At 3/4 the price, twice the memory, extremely good graphics, and decent sounds, I cannot blame the casual home computer user for buying the ST. As a matter of fact, if you want to even work on small programs at home, the ST would have to be the machine of choice. The extra $400+ that the cheapest Amiga costs is probably not worth the money, when it almost buys a whole 10 (or is it now 20) MB hard disk from ATARI. The bigger Amiga package (Monitor, 512K, extra floppy drive) cost me $2150 plus tax retail. This machine performs quite slow, unless I use RAM disk, and then 512K on the Amiga is not much memory for programs, let alone ramdisk. For $200 more, I could have bought an AT&T 6300 with 640K and a 10MB hard disk. The AT&T runs 2-3 times faster than an IBM XT, and runs the same compiler I use on the Amiga, plus the VAST MAJORITY of IBM PC programs. I took some heat (FLAME) about some earlier statements I made about Tecmar, and how ridiculous their pricing was (see net.micro.amiga). If you go whole hog and get 1MB of extra RAM and the 20MB hard disk, you gotta spend $2500 on top of the price of the Amiga. Now the Amiga runs like an IBM AT bu costs many $$$ more. FOR THE COST OF 1MB of RAM and a 20MB hard disk from Tecmar, I CAN BUY A SECOND AT&T 6300 with 640K and 10MB hard disk. Comparison Chart: IBM AT, 512K, 20MB hard disk $3500? (mail order) AT&T 6300, 640K, 10MB hard disk $2400 Amiga, 1.5MB, 20MB hard disk, 1 floppy, monitor $4495 Amiga, 512K, 2 floppies, Monitor $2150 Amiga, 128K, 1 floppy $1295 Atari 520 ST, 512K, monitor $899 THE BOTTOM LINE is that if I'm gonna spend $4495, I have to justify such a large expense. If I am a business, the IBM AT is much more attractive a machine to buy or 2 AT&T 6300s is even better. At $2400, the Amiga does not even compare with the AT&T 6300, except it makes better Mandlebrots. I run 'C' compiles and program editors most of the time, and the 6300 is 4 to 5 (if not even more) times faster. The Amiga at $1295 has got to be a less attractive machine than the ST. HOWEVER, to some of us, cost doesn't matter. I happen to write home computer software (8 published titles to my credit over the last 3 years), so my Amiga is a nice tax deduction. Others of you might truly be turned on by the state of the art in technology, and the Amiga is that, so that justifies the purchase of one. Currently, the Amiga runs one excellent application, intuition, plus a plethora (sarcasm) of software also available on other less expensive computers. The Amiga has real promise, and Amiga's support of the third party developer will help us developers create some new and exciting software. However, this new software has to be so good that it will sell AMIGAS. Amiga probably has to support third party developers, because we represent 90% of the people that will own their machine at the current prices. FLAME ON I would like to see Tecmar cut their prices in HALF, which all of a sudden makes the Amiga a more reasonable computer. At their current prices, it makes the Atari ST a much better machine to buy (for the home user). As a matter of fact, I could not recommend to a friend that he buy a $1295 Amiga if he didn't plan to expand it. I REPEAT: Cardco is supposed to sell a 1MB ram expansion board for the Amiga SOON for $295, so if you want to save some $$$, wait. Priam sells 70MB hard disks to my company for $600-$900, depending on the quantities ordered. I only heard about a 140MB drive from Priam being available for under $1000, and this seems to be too good to be true, but my source is pretty good. Even if a 70MB drive were made available for the AMIGA, it CAN BE DONE for the $1500 that Tecmar wants for 20MB. The market for RAM and Hard Disks will be pretty strong if the Amiga sells the 70,000 units expected by Christmas. At $200 profit per hard disk or RAM expander, someone is going to make 1 megabuck. When the Amiga gets up to 500,000 sales, watch them megabucks fly! FLAME OFF In conclusion: 1. The Amiga is GOD's gift to hackers everywhere. 2. The price of the Amiga and peripherals is too prohibitive for everyone else. 3. Save your money, buy Cardco instead of Tecmar. 4. Watch where you throw your flames or you might get burned. Mike Schwartz @ 3Com Corp. Mountain View, CA! It's 60 degrees and sunny here, do your buns need flaming?
phil@s3sun.ARPA (Phil Cohen) (12/26/85)
Dear Fellow Amiga Pioneers, Besides not getting ripped off by Tekmar, be careful not to get less than you pay for when purchasing software. A lot of titles are starting to appear in the stores now and many of them are bunk. Make sure the program is written especially for the Amiga. If it is a quick port of Mac or other software, it may not correctly support multi-tasking or make good use of the Amiga hardware. For example, Textcraft is a total pile. I would not pay $10 for it. It not only hangs your system while printing, but there is no way to get back to the workbench without exiting the application. As far as I can tell, this is a sign of shoddy workmanship. NO EXCUSE! Likewise, Graphicraft is dog doo when compared to Deluxe Paint and they are about the same price. I bought Deluxe Paint and it is a bargain at $80. Also, I saw a "Terminal Emulator" that did not emulate ANYTHING for $60. The 1.1 Basic disk has a "demo" program that does this for free, and you get source. I am using it now to read news and it works well at 1200 baud. Please don't get ripped off...it just encourages the slime that are trying to pass off this early, bunk software. Enjoy! Phil Cohen
mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (12/28/85)
> > Dear Fellow Amiga Pioneers, > > Besides not getting ripped off by Tekmar, be careful not to get less > than you pay for when purchasing software. > > A lot of titles are starting to appear in the stores now and many of > them are bunk. > I paid $595 for my first Commodore 64 (I've owned several of them), and paid $24.95 for "The Professional 6502 Assembler Language Development System" from HES (Human Engineered Software), which consisted of two 250 line basic programs... Whenever a machine is new there will always be a plethora of trashy software for it due to the rush to make a profit. /mykes
trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) (12/30/85)
> From: phil@s3sun.ARPA (Phil Cohen) > > A lot of titles are starting to appear in the stores now and many of > them are bunk. > ... > Please don't get ripped off...it just encourages the slime > that are trying to pass off this early, bunk software. > I seem to remember that this sort of thing happens with ALL new micros. There are always gonna be people and companies that will take advantage of the poor computer user with nothing to run on his brand new micro. The user is desperate for anything that he or she can use. Already I have seen people (or read mail from them) who are in desperate need of a terminal package and other similar programs. Those who are quick to capitalize on this ravenous/vulturic attitude produce shoddy programs and market them to an unsuspecting public. The only advice I have is for those of you who are in the market for Amiga software is that you all should wait before you spend your money. Make sure the program(s) you buy will be able to do the things you need it(them) to! Please be a smart shopper. (After reading this, you can tell why I lost my job at the computer store...) -- -- Jonathan D. Trudel -- arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel Why, Crusher! It's good to see you!
vishniac@wanginst.UUCP (Ephraim Vishniac) (12/30/85)
> > Dear Fellow Amiga Pioneers, > > > > A lot of titles are starting to appear in the stores now and many of > > them are bunk. > > I paid $595 for my first Commodore 64 (I've owned several of them), and > paid $24.95 for "The Professional 6502 Assembler Language Development > System" from HES (Human Engineered Software), which consisted of two > 250 line basic programs... Whenever a machine is new there will always > be a plethora of trashy software for it due to the rush to make a profit. > > /mykes I see a trend here... The first (and only) piece of software I bought from HES ("Turtle Tracks" for the Commodore VIC-20) was an incredible piece of trash. It did very little; it did it very slowly; it bombed frequently; it was poorly engineered; and it was incompatible with my Zenith TV. Fortunately, the last entitled me to return it for a refund, but only after wasting more money on several unreturned calls to HES. -- Ephraim Vishniac [apollo, bbncca, cadmus, decvax, harvard, linus, masscomp]!wanginst!vishniac vishniac%Wang-Inst@Csnet-Relay
mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (01/03/86)
In previous articles, some people may have thought my raving about the Tecmar prices was crazy, but.... I spoke to David Matthews at MicroForge in Winston GA by phone this morning. You will be seeing ads for MicroForge in the next AmigaWorld Magazine. Anyway, here is the scoop: MicroForge is going to be releasing (or already is ready to take orders for) the following: Developer Non-Developer Item $500 $716 5 slot expansion board with case and power supply. $70 $100 Same as above, but 1 slot $1000 $1400 1st 10MB Hard disk system $1050 $1500 1st 20MB Hard disk system $1275 $1800 1st 40MB Hard disk system $947 ??? 2nd 40MB hard disk system $280 $400 Stereo Sound Digitizer w/software $25 $18 RamDisk software that works with workbench. $70 $50 Full function editor with full macro capabilities $700 $1000 2MB Ram expansion board These prices are much better than Tecmar's, so you CAN REALLY SAVE MONEY. Just to refresh your memories, Tecmar wants $1000 for 1MB of RAM, and $2500 for a 20MB hard disk (plus 1MB of RAM). Tecmar does give you some real useful other features with their RAM board, though, like another serial and parallel port, battery backed up clock, and the SASI controller required for the disk. I realize you folks can add, but I will add it up for you anyway. For $2500, you can get 1MB of RAM and 20MB of hard disk from Tecmar. For developers, $2500 will buy the 5-slot bus extension, power supply, 2MB of RAM, and a 40MB hard disk. My opinion that the best route to go is to buy the 1 slot adapter ($70), power supply ($150), and 40MB hard disk ($1275) for a reasonable $1500 (approx.) price tag. David Matthews is very enthusiastic about the Amiga, and is a good person to talk with. MicroForge makes products for the Macintosh, so they apparently know a little about making peripherals for 68K machines. I have no experience with their products, but I am very impressed with Mr. Matthews, and he seemed to be quite knowledgeable about the Amiga internals required to make these products. IN MY OPINION, he is really doing the universe a favor by not taking advantage of a lack of competition for hardware products in the Amiga marketplace, and he will get my business. I hope he gets yours, too. AVAILABILITY: MicroForge will be ready to take VISA orders in about a week (1/10/86), but not all of the above mentioned products are ready. As of this posting, the 5-slot expander will not be ready until mid-to-end of February (they have had to juggle their designs because the conventions for putting things on the Amiga bus is not quite finalized). The 2MB RAM expansion will be available around the same time. He also has no 40MB disks in stock, but he has been told he will get them before next week. Everything else is available NOW!!! PS: Has anyone ever seen a Tecmar product (that works) for the Amiga that is available? (I am just curious)
mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (01/08/86)
I blew it (sorry folks) and forgot to post Micro Forge's phone #. I am reposting the following article, in case it didn't make it to everyone the first time. Micro Forge is located in Winston Ga, and their phone number is 404-949-5698. I spoke with David Matthews there. I plan to wait for his 40MB disks and will get the 1 slot expander and power supply (required for hard disk). His complete expansion system makes the Amiga into an awesome machine: 80MB hard disk, 8.5 MB Ram, etc. (it all fits in his 5 slot expander). Someone sent me mail, saying what I wrote here is correct (prices), but that Tecmar's products are available now. Are they? In article <325@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes: >In previous articles, some people may have thought my raving about the >Tecmar prices was crazy, but.... > >I spoke to David Matthews at MicroForge in Winston GA by phone this >morning. You will be seeing ads for MicroForge in the next AmigaWorld >Magazine. Anyway, here is the scoop: > >MicroForge is going to be releasing (or already is ready to take orders >for) the following: > >Developer Non-Developer Item >$500 $716 5 slot expansion board with case > and power supply. >$70 $100 Same as above, but 1 slot >$1000 $1400 1st 10MB Hard disk system >$1050 $1500 1st 20MB Hard disk system >$1275 $1800 1st 40MB Hard disk system >$947 ??? 2nd 40MB hard disk system >$280 $400 Stereo Sound Digitizer w/software >$25 $18 RamDisk software that works with > workbench. >$70 $50 Full function editor with full > macro capabilities >$700 $1000 2MB Ram expansion board > >These prices are much better than Tecmar's, so you CAN REALLY SAVE >MONEY. Just to refresh your memories, Tecmar wants $1000 for 1MB of >RAM, and $2500 for a 20MB hard disk (plus 1MB of RAM). Tecmar does >give you some real useful other features with their RAM board, though, >like another serial and parallel port, battery backed up clock, and >the SASI controller required for the disk. I realize you folks can add, >but I will add it up for you anyway. > >For $2500, you can get 1MB of RAM and 20MB of hard disk from Tecmar. For >developers, $2500 will buy the 5-slot bus extension, power supply, 2MB of >RAM, and a 40MB hard disk. My opinion that the best route to go is to >buy the 1 slot adapter ($70), power supply ($150), and 40MB hard disk >($1275) for a reasonable $1500 (approx.) price tag. > >David Matthews is very enthusiastic about the Amiga, and is a good person >to talk with. MicroForge makes products for the Macintosh, so they >apparently know a little about making peripherals for 68K machines. >I have no experience with their products, but I am very impressed >with Mr. Matthews, and he seemed to be quite knowledgeable about >the Amiga internals required to make these products. IN MY OPINION, >he is really doing the universe a favor by not taking advantage of >a lack of competition for hardware products in the Amiga marketplace, >and he will get my business. I hope he gets yours, too. > >AVAILABILITY: >MicroForge will be ready to take VISA orders in about a week (1/10/86), >but not all of the above mentioned products are ready. As of this >posting, the 5-slot expander will not be ready until mid-to-end of >February (they have had to juggle their designs because the conventions >for putting things on the Amiga bus is not quite finalized). The 2MB >RAM expansion will be available around the same time. He also has no >40MB disks in stock, but he has been told he will get them before next >week. Everything else is available NOW!!! > >PS: > Has anyone ever seen a Tecmar product (that works) for the >Amiga that is available? (I am just curious) >