[net.micro.amiga] The real debate begins: Atari ST vs Commodore 128

mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (01/07/86)

Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition,
retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition
to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again?  The latest 
I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his
distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and
diverting his distribution to K-MART.  Apparently AT&T will also sell
the ST as a low end UNIX terminal.

I see a little bit of humor in this, as well as a bit of sadness.  If
software developers support GEM (and produce MAC quality stuff), then
the Mac could very well disappear.  After all, you can't beat the price
for such comparable machines.  The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga
was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone
as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).

If Mr. Tramiel is trying to drive Commodore to its knees by forcing it
to drop its Amiga price down near the ST's new price, he may be in for
a rude awakening.  What he has actually done is downgraded the 'a-priori'
notion of the ST that we all have, and turned it into a real tough
competitor for the COMMODORE 128.  If the Amiga prices don't fall, then
(MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves.
There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people,
the Amiga will still be worth the price.

At this point, I think we ought to stop the silly Amiga vs. ST debate
and get on with one that is more worthwhile: ST vs. 128...

We all know about the ST, but the 128 is actually going to give it a
run for its money (MY OPINION).  On the software front, the 128 runs
a few THOUSAND C64 programs, including the largest selection of graphics-
arcade-etc. games.  The 128 ALSO runs a few THOUSAND CP/M programs in
128 mode.  The 128 is also packaged quite nicely, and is actually a
real "sexy" machine.  To the mass market consumer, these things might
outweigh other minor details like higher resolution, more horsepower,
better (this is open to debate) peripherals, etc.

The Japanese tried to create a new standard a few years back called
MSX.  Although the MSX machines could never compete over here with the
C64, I always felt that their reasoning was pretty sound.  The buyer
really doesn't care if he has a 1MHz 6502 or a 1GHz 68090 (I like 
inventing future chips) just as long as it runs the software they need
to run - effectively.

I would also like to mention the possibility that Tramiel will end up
selling thousands of UNIX terminals before he DROPS the ST altogether
in favor of the TT, which is supposed to have a 32032 instead of a
68000 (I hope they still use GEM and 'C' so you ST owners will be able
to move on up with ATARI products.

----------- don't flame me, I'm doused with gasoline -----------

This may or may not be what you want to hear, but it may be true,
but is only my humble opinion (and therefore might not be).

/mykes

----------------------------------------------------------------
At $400, the ST might make a nice printer buffer for my Amiga....

rjd@faron.UUCP (Robert DeBenedictis) (01/09/86)

In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition,
>retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition
>to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again?  ...
> Tramiel has ... got all of his
>distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400 ...
>
>If Mr. Tramiel is trying to drive Commodore to its knees by forcing it
>to drop its Amiga price down near the ST's new price, he may be in for
>a rude awakening.  What he has actually done is downgraded the 'a-priori'
>notion of the ST that we all have, and turned it into a real tough
>competitor for the COMMODORE 128.  If the Amiga prices don't fall, then
>(MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves.
> ...
>/mykes
>...
>At $400, the ST might make a nice printer buffer for my Amiga....

I have been watching the flaming in this newsgroup from a safe distance for
some time now, but I could not restrain myself from responding to this
idiotic article.  

It would seem that Mr. Schwartz is saying that the Atari 520ST will not
succeed because its price has dropped too low, thus leaving the Amiga all
alone in its price range to gobble up the entire market.  This is the
some of the stupidest reasoning I have yet heard in this newsgroup (which is
really saying something).  

Tramiel didn't change the *machine*.  He just lowered the price.  Yes, its
still the same machine that beats the Amiga in at least one well-established
benchmark.  If you think he actually reduced the machine's chances of success
by doing this, then I would appreciate some further explanation of why you
think so. 

Granted, people who judge computer hardware using their "a priori" notions
based solely on the price of the machine probably won't buy the 520ST, but I
certainly don't see any reason to expect them to buy the Amiga either.  (It
seems like they usually end up with stuff from IBM.)

foy@aero.ARPA (Richard Foy) (01/09/86)

In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:

>the Mac could very well disappear.  After all, you can't beat the price
>for such comparable machines.  The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga
>was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone
>as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
>as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).

What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than
computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to
a toy?

hes@ecsvax.UUCP (01/10/86)

> Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition,
> retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition
> to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again?  ...
> 
> ... (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
> as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).
> 
> ...  If the Amiga prices don't fall, then
> (MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves.
> There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people,
> the Amiga will still be worth the price.
> ...
> /mykes
> At $400, the ST might make a nice printer buffer for my Amiga....
   
   Why doesn't Commodore just raise their prices up to the $10,000 range,
and then people will buy Amigas instead of PC-ATs?  One reason may be that
not everyone is convinced that list price == real value.  Furthermore, not
everyone buys the most valuable system - sometimes one can't afford it, and
has to settle for an affordable system.  (As for me I'm buying a Sun 3 with
hard disk server instead of a 520ST or Amiga -- at least that's what I'ld
like to do, if I had the money to do it.)

   Seriously - the major *real* problem is that Atari could disrupt their
dealer support network, making the 520ST less attractive to serious
buyers.  Of course since most developer/serious/hacker-type buyers seem to be
already buying via mail - there may be little support present anyway, and
then that loss will not make any difference.  The added volume of sales
of the ST would probably make developers more interested, though.

--henry schaffer  
Disclaimer + 1/2 :-)

ixl9261@ritcv.UUCP (Ilia Levi) (01/11/86)

In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition,
>retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition
>to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again?  The latest 
>I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his
>distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and
>diverting his distribution to K-MART.  Apparently AT&T will also sell
>the ST as a low end UNIX terminal.
> ...
>as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
>as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).
>

I totally aggree. I think that Jack Tramiel should make the price of the ST
$400 higher than Amiga's, then it's going to sell like pancakes and be a
much more powerful computer.  :-)
I bought my Atari 800 for $900 several years ago and it's a lot better computer
than the $400 Atari 800 you could buy several years later. :-)

david@randvax.UUCP (David Shlapak) (01/11/86)

    Please, please, PLEASE, whatever you do, do NOT begin this great
    debate on net.micro.mac..!

				    --- das

ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) (01/11/86)

> In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> >Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition,
> >retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition
> >to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again?  The latest 
> >I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his
> >distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and
> >diverting his distribution to K-MART.  Apparently AT&T will also sell
> >the ST as a low end UNIX terminal.
> > ...
> >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
> >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).
> >
Are you sure you don't own a computer store? 8-)

It is better to sell something at a fair price than to bilk the public with
outrageous pricing such as exists with Apple stuff.
But if you really think a computer turns into a toy due to its pricing, I will
buy an ST at K-Mart for $400 and sell it to you for $700 and you will have a
'real computer' again.

And to be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no feelings for computer stores
one way or the other, if they go out of business, tough.  I know they had no
feelings of sorrow when they tried to charge me $400.00 to upgrade my 16k pet
to 32k several years back.  I did it myself for about $30.00.

If you want to subsidize computer stores, fine, but I don't, and given a choice,
I would rather subsidize a farmer.8-)

this is ray saying bye bye.

jdb@mordor.UUCP (John Bruner) (01/11/86)

>What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than
>computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to
>a toy?

Also, why does a high price change a toy machine into a "serious" one?
I have great difficulty considering a machine which can't display
reasonable-quality text without flicker anything but a sophisticated
games machine.
-- 
  John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
  MILNET: jdb@mordor [jdb@s1-c.ARPA]	(415) 422-0758
  UUCP: ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!jdb 	...!seismo!mordor!jdb

mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (01/11/86)

Since it seems that my initial posting was misinterpreted, I will make
my points clearer:

look at this price range:
Commodore 64		$100
Commodore 128		$400
Atari 520 ST		$400
Apple II		$800
Amiga (game machine)	$1300
MacIntosh		$1700
IBM PC XT		$1700
Amiga PC		$2200	(512K Ram, 2 Floppies)
AT&T 6300 XT		$2400
IBM PC AT		$3500
Amiga Super PC		$4000	(80 MB hard disk, 8.5 MB RAM)

When Joe Lunchbucket (the average consumer) goes to K-Mart, the C128
and the Atari ST will be sitting there side by side.  On the shelves there
will be THOUSANDS of C128 programs, and a hundred (maybe) for the ST.  The
C128 probably outsold the Amiga and the ST 4-to-1 this past Christmas.  I
LIKE THE ST, but I doubt if the support you get from K-Mart is nearly as
good as it would be from a place like Businessland or Computerland or
Computer Attic.  The C128 requires a LOT LESS HANDHOLDING than any of the
other computers around.  And PROFESSIONAL salespeople (including the
good ones and the bad ones) are expensive to maintain - it is better to
spend your time selling more expensive machines for larger comissions.  The
fact that so many people keep buying Apple II's, IBM PC's, C64's and C128s
seems to indicate to me that the average person either cannot tell the
difference between things that are state of the art (68000 vs. 6502) or
they just don't care (what can the computer do for me now).  Another factor
might be a HUGE INVESTMENT in software already purchased for the C64 or
C128 (they can both run the C64 software) and Apple II and IBM PC.

A year ago Christmas, I could have bought an Apple IIc (128 K Ram, built-in
floppy) and a monochrome monitor for $2000.  This Christmas, I bought an
Amiga (512K Ram, built-in floppy, external floppy, COLOR monitor, mouse)
for the same price.  This to me is really exciting.  I think that people
willing to spend the money for the Apple II or MacIntosh will consider
spending the same money for an Amiga.  The three machines will be standing
next to eachother in the same COMPUTER store, and the Amiga will TALK and
PLAY HIGH QUALITY STEREO MUSIC, and will have COLOR PAINT PROGRAMS, and
will demonstrate its MULTI-TASKING.  The Atari ST WILL NOT BE THERE or it
might offer similar alternatives.

I bought my Amiga for what I feel are good reasons.  What a machine comes
with standard (out of the box) becomes a standard for which all future
programs for it can be designed.  The Amiga sound capabilities, stock, are
good enough to make real sounds and instruments, and ALL AMIGAS can do it.
I have never liked talking computers, because they have always been really
repetitive, but ALL AMIGAS TALK AND the only things it can't say are limited
by the imagination of the people who have them.  I like the idea of using
the same development environment as everyone else for the machine, and 'C'
is the best choice  for me.  I think the Amiga was made to program on, just
like the IBM PC is physically, and the Amiga's software is a real 
dream to interface to.  I like the fact that a lot of source code is posted
to net.micro.amiga, and that I can learn from it as well as compile it and
use it.  I also think that people will ALWAYS EXPAND A COMPUTER AS FAR
AS THEY CAN, which means that the Amiga will be an 8.5MB machine for lots
of us.

I talked to Bruce Artwick on the phone, and e said that his work on Flight
Simulator for the Amiga is coming along a little slower than he would like,
but he had to do some more work on the Mac version.  He did indicate that a
ST version would be coming out, too.

I would also like to point out that I call any computer that you can buy
at TOYS-R-US a toy.  I buy stuff at K-Mart and Toys-R-Us (I'm not proud),
and they are fine places.  The thing that I like about the ST is that
AT&T will be selling them (or so it seems) as low-cost UNIX workstations.
I will want to take advantage of all the UNIX-to-ST stuff that will be done,
so I have little doubt I will even buy one - at TOYS-R-US.  Another big
plus is that ST repair service will be the best - just bring it back and
the store can give you a new one.

/mykes

P.S. Count the flames in this one, (0).

page@ulowell.UUCP (Bob Page) (01/13/86)

>At this point, I think we ought to stop the silly Amiga vs. ST debate
>and get on with one that is more worthwhile: ST vs. 128...

I read net.micro.amiga for information.  The signal to noise ratio here
is getting worse.  Heated, emotional comparisons with any other machine
(except maybe the Amiga 2 ?) is of no use to   a n y b o d y .  Think.

I hereby propose mod.amiga (mod.comp.amiga, mod.micro.amiga. mod.cbm.amiga,
I don't care), along with mod.amiga.sources and mod.amiga.binaries (in
keeping with the proposed mac renovation scheme).

I have already privately offered to moderate mod.amiga.{sources,binaries},
I now publicly offer to moderate mod.amiga .  I will let you flame and
repost all you want (well...), but will not allow rabid discussion of
other machines.  How's that for laying it on the table?

I have cross-posted this to net.news.group, where any discussion should
be held.  *Don't* followup to net.micro.amiga !

Let's do it now before someone decides to do it for us.

..Bob
-- 
UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!page          Bob Page
ARPA: page@ulowell.CSNET             University of Lowell
BIX:  page                           Computer Science Dept
VOX:  +1 617 452 5000 x2233          Lowell MA 01854 USA

eve@ssc-bee.UUCP (Michael Eve) (01/13/86)

> ...(I can't help but think of a $400 computer
> as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).

Elitism rears it's ugly, yuppy head again.

> ...  If the Amiga prices don't fall, then
> (MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves.
> There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people,
> the Amiga will still be worth the price.

In the Amiga case, you are getting $40 million dollars worth of TV advertising 
plus the opportunity to pay off Commodore's huge debt for the mistakes AFTER 
Tramiel left.

> 
> At this point, I think we ought to stop the silly Amiga vs. ST debate

Agreed. It is very silly.  Given two comparable computers, one $1500 and the 
other $300, the debate is ridiculous.

P.S.: I really do like the Amiga computer; I just hate the price. (And I love
all that memory on the new 1040 ST, and what about homebrew upgrades to 2 MEG!!)
-- 
	Mike Eve     Boeing Aerospace, Seattle
	...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!eve

jgray@pilchuckDataio.UUCP (Jerrold Gray) (01/14/86)

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR ATOYRI ***

> In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> 
> >the Mac could very well disappear.  After all, you can't beat the price
> >for such comparable machines.  The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga
> >was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone
> >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer
> >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy).
> 
> What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than
> computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to
> a toy?

One of the many affects of this kind of market repositioning is that some
third party developers (mostly in harware, In my opinion) are either going to
halt or pick up developments because of the price change. On the plus side,
I think that the price drop will stimulate development and use of the ST.
On the negative side, companies that might have considered the ST for
professional use (do they exist?) might reconsider.

So called "professional" products which could cost $1K-$50K each seem
somewhat rediculous when paired with a $800 computer. A $400 dollar
computer you say? Forget it. Why would a company soil its professional
image associating with the rabble :-).  



				Jerrold L. Gray
				uw-beaver!teltone!dataio!pilchuck!jgray

				USNAIL:	10525 Willows Road N.E. /C-46
					Redmond, Wa.  98052
					(206) 881 - 6444 x478

				Telex:  15-2167

"Alright!....  Everyone get back in the TARDIS!   Hup two three four..."

mjg@ecsvax.UUCP (01/14/86)

I think it is time that people redirected their energies to writing
some useful programs instead of boring us all with this interminable
ST versus Amiga debate. Then we would all be better off. The public
will decide with their checkbooks and credit cards and until then
contributing good programs to the machine of your choice would be
far more valuable to your cause.

Mike Gingell     ...decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!mjg

david@randvax.UUCP (David Shlapak) (01/16/86)

    Once again, while this may be "The real debate," I really don't think
    it belongs on net.micro.mac; I used to own an Atari, and I used to own
    a Commodore; now I own a computer, and I really don't want to hear
    about Toys-r-Us hardware with Nowhere-in-Sight software...

    Again, please edit the headers when you post this stuff...

    Thanks! Cheers...

                                            --- das