LAVITSKY@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU (12/24/85)
From: Eric <LAVITSKY@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Hi, Well, I got a chance to look at MaxiDesk the other day and can only say that I wholehartedly agree with Perry about it. I can't believe that a manfacturer would charge money for such trash! I suggest that everyone beware of this product - put it through it's paces before you buy it - don't just take my word for it. I think it's a prefect example of a beautiful piece of hardware running the most awfull software conceivable. On a brighter note, Deluxe Paint from Electronic Arts looks awesome (at least the pictures I saw produced with it did!). I only had a few minutes to play with it and barely touched all of it's capabilities, but I do want to play with it more! Hopefully my dealer will have it in soon. I'm really looking forward to Deluxe Music Construction Set now - has anyone heard dates for it's release? - how about Marble Madness? (after all, all work and no play... :-)...) Eric -------
papa@uscvax.UUCP (Marco Papa) (01/02/86)
> On a brighter note, Deluxe Paint from Electronic Arts looks awesome > (at least the pictures I saw produced with it did!). I only had a few > minutes to play with it and barely touched all of it's capabilities, > but I do want to play with it more! Hopefully my dealer will have it > in soon. > > Eric Does anybody know or have pointers about the IFF file format that Electronic Arts is supposedly using for storing their graphics images? Marco Papa USC - Computer Science Dept. UUCP: ...!{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs}!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!uscvax!papa ...!{allegra,trwrb,trwspp,ism780,cithep,oberon}!uscvax!papa CSNET: papa@usc-cse.csnet ARPA: papa%usc-cse@csnet-relay.arpa
bruceb@amiga.UUCP (Bruce Barrett) (01/06/86)
The IFF format is defined and documented in the new (V1.1) ROM Kernel manual. It should be out "real soon now" (I hope). Also Commodore (Westchester, PA) now has, and is reproducing, the V1.1 developers kits (IBM cross and Native). Again look for it soon. --BruceB
wagner@utcs.uucp (Michael Wagner) (01/10/86)
I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange. Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure. First off, unlike everything else I have gotten so far, the instructions make no mention of backing up the disk. I don't tend to let that worry me....I've been around long enough to make backups of my disks without waiting for the documentation to remind me. Unfortunately, using the standard drag-the-icon-over-an-empty-disk-icon method of backing up a disk fails with a sector header error on the source disk. Awfully suspicious. Seems to be repeatable. So then I used copy from CLI to make a new disk. Grinds forever, but is actually copying things. Directories look similar afterwards (didn't do a logical byte-by-byte compare - is there one?). The copy boots, shows the paint can, does some more I/O (including to the second drive with nothing in it), then quietly puts the machine to sleep. Only rebooting will re-awaken it. Well, now, the I/O to the second disk intrigued me, so I put the original disknto the second drive, rebooted, and got to the point where it had died . before. This time, much more flashing on the second drive, then Poof...it came up. At this point, I'm postulating that the program has some copy protection scheme whereby the original (presumably subtly damaged) disk must be online somewhere during the initial boot-up. After that, you can (seemingly) remove the original and run on the copy. Does anyone know if I am surmising correctly? Can anyone confirm or contradict this from their experiences? I guess the reason this all bothers me is (a) nowhere did it say that I was buying a copy-protected program (I might not have bought it had I known), and (b) the disk is starting to scream and whistle and play tunes when accessed. It's the only one of 15 disks I have that is so musical. In all my years, I have never really gotten complacent about the sounds of disks crashing, and this one sure sounds like it is on it's way. At that point, I have no idea what policies of return and so forth Electronic Arts subscribes to, but I am betting that I will be without the usage of my program for at least a while. While I sound very calm about all this, I am actually rather upset. I just don't emote well in ASCII. But if only I could speak, face to face, with the executive who thought he was doing his company some good by making his program less than reliable ..................................... Michael P.S. I expect Electronic Arts is a name registered in some legal way or other. But then, they don't seem to respect my integrity, so why should I worry about their name?
farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) (01/13/86)
In article <1048@utcs.uucp>, wagner@utcs.uucp (Michael Wagner) writes: > > I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange. > Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure. { deleted lines go here } > I guess the reason this all bothers me is (a) nowhere did it say that I was > buying a copy-protected program (I might not have bought it had I known), and > (b) the disk is starting to scream and whistle and play tunes when accessed. > It's the only one of 15 disks I have that is so musical. In all my years, > I have never really gotten complacent about the sounds of disks crashing, > and this one sure sounds like it is on it's way. Electronic Arts has a reputation in the micro world as being one of the companies most dedicated to copy protection. Some friends of mine own a Commodore 64, and had no disk drive problems until they bought an EA product. After using the EA program, and listening to the grinding and crunching noise the disk drive made, they found that they needed their drive re-aligned! One would hope that EA will "see the light" eventually. They generally do a good job, but their die-hard attitude on copy-protection is a BIG loser. -- Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (01/13/86)
> > I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange. > Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure. > First off, unlike everything else I have gotten so far, the instructions > make no mention of backing up the disk. I don't tend to let that worry > me....I've been around long enough to make backups of my disks without > waiting for the documentation to remind me. > This is unfortunately true, ALL of EA's software is copyprotected with some sort of 'key disk' system. It is truly discouraging that they would put dpaint in the same category as 'game software'. You should also know that MaxiComm (from EA) is also copy protected. If you don't like it give them a call and complain. If enough of us do that they just might change their attitude. --Chuck P.S. The instructions do make one mention of backing up the disk, they recomend that you send them an ADDITIONAL $10 for a 'backup' copy. -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
kim@mips.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) (01/14/86)
> I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange. > Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure. > ... > > At this point, I'm postulating that the program has some copy protection > scheme whereby the original (presumably subtly damaged) disk must be online > somewhere during the initial boot-up. After that, you can (seemingly) remove > the original and run on the copy. > > Does anyone know if I am surmising correctly? Can anyone confirm or > contradict this from their experiences? Your surmising is right on target. EA is using a "key-disk" form of copy- protection on DPaint. > At that point, I have no > idea what policies of return and so forth Electronic Arts subscribes to, but > I am betting that I will be without the usage of my program for at least a > while. Somewhere in the documentation for DPaint, there is an "offer" to provide a "back-up" disk for $10. Sorry, I don't remember if it is in the "manual", the "reference card", or on the "registration postcard". I sent in my $10 back in mid-December, but haven't received the duplicate disk yet. Beyond that, I believe EA offers to replace a trashed disk for $7.50 upon receipt of the disk that's bad when accompanied by "proof-of-purchase". I'm not sure what the time-limit is on this, but it's mentioned in the Warranty somewhere. > While I sound very calm about all this, I am actually rather upset. I just > don't emote well in ASCII. But if only I could speak, face to face, with > the executive who thought he was doing his company some good by making his > program less than reliable ..................................... I agree 1000% with you. On the positive side, EA *has* been doing a fair amount of investigation into "alternative" methods of "protection" for their "productivity software". They state upfront that they will probably *always* copy-protect their games. On their productivity software, such as DPaint, they are looking at replacing copy-protection with things like: 1. Requiring the user to "unlock" the program by answering a question that relates to the package itself (e.g., What color is the circle in the 3rd picture shown on the inside cover of the jacket?) I would imagine there would be several possible question/answer pairs. 2. For a non-protected version of the program, encoding the purchasers credit-card number in the opening menu. The idea here is that (1) most people wouldn't intentionally "publish" their own account number, and (2) it would be possible to trace the number to the card-holder. 3. Provide two versions of the program: the cheap, mass-market, copy-protected version; also a more expensive, speciality-item, non-protected version. None of these alternatives is a perfect solution ... point is, EA *is* taking alot of heat over the protection issue on DPaint, and they *are* listening to their customers, which is more than I can say of most CP advocating software vendors I know of. The above information summarizes alot of postings on CompuServe in the Amiga SIG there (go pcs-61, if you're interested). Jay J.... (sorry, I don't remember his last name) of Electronic Arts is their representitive there. I have no affiliation with Electronic Arts or CompuServe. The above opinions are mine, but you are free to copy them if you like :-). /kim -- UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!mips!kim DDD: 415-960-1200 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems Inc, 1330 Charleston Rd, Mt View, CA 94043
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (01/15/86)
In article <477@well.UUCP> farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes: > Electronic Arts has a reputation in the micro world as being one of the >companies most dedicated to copy protection. Some friends of mine own a >Commodore 64, and had no disk drive problems until they bought an EA product. >After using the EA program, and listening to the grinding and crunching noise >the disk drive made, they found that they needed their drive re-aligned! > > One would hope that EA will "see the light" eventually. They generally do >a good job, but their die-hard attitude on copy-protection is a BIG loser. > EA is considering dropping copy protection. They left a note on the Amiga Forum on compuserve asking how much more poeple would be willing to pay for unprotected versions of programs. Most of the people responding said thay would be willing to pay $10 to $30 more for unprotected programs. If you have a dis-assembler, EA copy protection can be quite amusing to look at ( at least if they do it on the Amiga like they do on the Mac ). I would have never on my own thought of calling a routine by setting the divide by zero vector to point to the routine, and then entering a weird loop that does a divide by zero after a few hundred iterations! Yow, are we having fun yet? -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (01/15/86)
In article <179@intelca.UUCP> cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: > This is unfortunately true, ALL of EA's software is copyprotected > with some sort of 'key disk' system. The thing I found most obnoxious when I bought an EA program ( for another computer, not the Amiga ), was that the manual doesn't mention that it is a key disk! The program doesn't ask for the key disk, it just crashes! I called and complained about that, and they said it was done that way on purpose. > It is truly discouraging that they would put dpaint in the same > category as 'game software'. Maybe they are putting it in the same category as spreadsheets and databases. -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
hamilton@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU (01/15/86)
>I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange. >Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure. if it looks like CP, sounds like CP, and smells like CP, guess what it is? i'm waiting for aegis to come out with their paint program; they've promised it won't be protected. wayne hamilton
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (01/16/86)
In article <288@mips.UUCP> kim@mips.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >they are looking at replacing copy-protection with things like: > > 2. For a non-protected version of the program, encoding the purchasers > credit-card number in the opening menu. The idea here is that I think they meant this as a joke. At least, that is the impression I got from their postings on Compuserve. >The above information summarizes alot of postings on CompuServe in the Amiga >SIG there (go pcs-61, if you're interested). Jay J.... (sorry, I don't go amigaforum also works, and is easier to remember. -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
hr@uicsl.UUCP (01/16/86)
RE: Deluxe Paint ...Is Deluxe Paint copy protected?.. I think that it almost certainly is copy protected. When I tried to use diskcopy, I got a missing sector header message on sector 30 (approx). (This is not the same as a bad sector.) Activision seems to use the same mechanism to protect Hacker and Mindshadow. (Their missing header is way at the end). A friend ran a magnet over one of his disks then tried to copy his Activision disk. He got a bad sector (not missing) error when he tried to run the copied disk. He also tried to boot up Mindshadow and then switch to a "copied" disk. After awhile, the program checked again and turned off the ability to pick up anything. By the way, Mindshadow won't even let you run unless the disk is writeable. Back to D.P. If you read your registration card for Deluxe Paint you should find that for the small sum of $10.00, they will send you a backup copy. I mailed mine off, but haven't seen anything back yet. Before a friend had let me copy V1.1 Kickstart, I had been able to run Deluxe Paint by booting V1.0 workbench then "cd'ing" into DF1: before typing "run dpaint". The program ran, but any attempt to do a disk access crashed the system. When I got V1.1, the crashing stopped. By the way, "7 Cities of Gold" says that it requires V1.1 and a joystick. I ran it using V1.0 and an Atari joystick with no apparent problems. E.A. seems to like fancy startup graphics and heavy copy protection. (I also have M.U.L.E. for my Atari 800). If I can find a company that doesn't waste my time with this nonsense, I think I'll change. ---- harold ravlin {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!uicsl!hr
atoy@watnot.UUCP (Andy Toy) (01/17/86)
In article <249@ism780c.UUCP> tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes: >EA is considering dropping copy protection. They left a note on the Amiga >Forum on compuserve asking how much more poeple would be willing to pay >for unprotected versions of programs. Most of the people responding said >thay would be willing to pay $10 to $30 more for unprotected programs. Why should people pay more money for programs that are not copy-protected? Shouldn't they cost less since they don't have to develop a copy-protection scheme? What do you think about those protection keys that come with some software where you have to plug it into a port or bus on the computer? Do you think that it would be a better alternative to disk keys? I can see that this would cost the companies more to provide this kind of key, therefore the price should increase, but then the disk can be backed-up as much as you like. That might be okay if the key doesn't wear out your expansion bus or whichever port it plugs into. Well, enough said. I'm going to call EA and let them know my opinions on copy-protection. You should too. I think that discussion about types of copy-protection should be discussed in this newsgroup because it affects your hardware, adversely in the case of key disks, and a viable solution should be found. It is important to Amiga owners that these key disks, if they must be used, must not cause you to go see your authorized repair centre more frequently. -- Andy Toy, Mapping Analysis and Design Group (MAD), Faculty of Environmental Studies, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 (519) 885-1211 x6563 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | UUCP: ...!{utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|allegra}!watmath!watdcsu!atoy | # ARPA: atoy%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa # | CSNET: atoy%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet | # EAN: atoy@dcsu.waterloo.cdn # | BITNET: atoy at watdcsu | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
aaz@pucc-j (Marc Mengel) (01/27/86)
Copy protection is only useful up to a point... Someone will eventually find a way to copy the program -- especially if it is excessively high priced ( as most software is today! ). There are even people who break copy protection schemes as a hobby. (Not to mention the people who do it for income...) Programs that will copy copy-protected disks are always in demand. Why? First, backups of programs *are* a neccessity. One spilled cup of coffee, one too many drops on the floor; anything of the sort will destroy a 300 dollar program. Then you get to pay however-many-hundred dollars for a new one, or go through the hassle and wait of getting a backup copy sent. It is an inconvenience, and an insult to honest people who wouldn't sell or copy illegally. Second, most copy protection schemes are hard on the machine's hardware (esp. the copy protected disk itself.) Things like forcibly imposed write/read errors cause the offending sector to be re-read many more times than it would have been otherwise. So, you may ask, how do we prevent software piracy? Answer: you don't. You can't. You can *reduce* it, however. Making programs that have hidden serial numbers make it easier to trace pirated copies. Good user support for "registered" owners is a good incentive for buying a product. Also, not charging excessive prices (i.e. $500 for a spreadsheet or simple database manager) will help. All of these things make it less worth someones time to copy it, and more worth their time to buy it. To those people who claim that programs will only be stolen if they are not copy protected, I point to the success of programs like PC-Talk for the IBM, which is not copy-protected, indeed it is distributed by "free-ware", where you are *encouraged* to give copies away, and then you can register for a small fee and get updates, etc. This also gives prospective puchasers the chance to "try out" software. -- Marc Mengel Uucp: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs }!pur-ee!pucc-j!aaz { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax }!purdue!pucc-j!aaz USnail: 910 N. 9th street Lafayette IN 47904
wagner@utcs.uucp (Michael Wagner) (01/28/86)
As the person who penned the original followup that took the conversation into the realm of copy protection, I would like to try to head this off before it becomes a full-fledged general copy protection discussion. The network tends to have a high degree of positive feedback, and therefore tends to degenerate easily into discussions of little value. Copy protection is one of those conversations. General conversation of copy protection is not inherently bad...it just has to occur in the right newsgroup (I've been off for a while, so I don't know where the proper place is any more...anyone help me out?). I did not mean to start a general pros and cons of copy protection discussion here. I had never run across a program copy protected the way DeluxePaint is, wasn't sure that this was copy protection, wasn't sure what to do about it, and so on. I (and other interested parties) got the answers I needed; to wit: DP is copy protected, in a so called key-disk manner; the vendor is currently thinking about this scheme, so mail to him might help; their other policies that bear on the question are a replacement policy where you send the old damaged disk and some money, and a backup disk policy for those with more foresight, where you send more money and get a second copy; and a habit of reporting the names of other copy protected programs here (and other forums) might be of value. Sorry for being so long-winded...I guess I also summarized to the net the results of my query. Michael Wagner, UTCS (utcs!wagner)