rmariani@watnot.UUCP (Rico Mariani) (01/22/86)
I Repeat: This is somewhat commerical, read at your own risk.... Due to the number of requests I've had for info re: the memory board I've been using (and also due to the article I'm following up) I've decided to risk commercialism... here goes nothing. In article <1099@ecsvax.UUCP> urjlew@ecsvax.BITNET (Rostyk Lewyckyj) writes: >Keywords:Microsoft BASIC,vendor attitudes,COMSPEC >[Microsoft Basic comments/bugs removed] > >Also while in Toronto I tried to call COMSPEC at the number >published on the net a little while ago. COMSPEC has pre- >announced a 2 meg memory expansion card for around $800. CDN. >Because I was not a reseller or a school, the head office >would not talk with me. They referred me to their retail store >on [CENSORED]. tel. [--CENSORED--]. The personnel at the store >had no specific information about the board. The answers were >all "I can't tell you". Supposedly the board will only be >available fully populated and will get its power from the main >box. Questions I wanted answered were: would it allow further >expansions, What kind of chips, static (highly unlikely), >256k x 1, 64k x 4, with or without parity, full speed or with >wait states. Some of these questions are perhaps irrelevant, >but some answers would be a better indication that the >hardware already exists. Good news and bad news for Amiga lovers... the board already exists and I've had a Beta test version of it connected to my Amiga already. It uses dynamic memory (don't know what kind of chips off hand, does it matter?) with no parity checking and no wait states. Well actually that's not *quite* true, if you try to access the same memory that is being refreshed then the CPU may see as many as 3 wait states. From what I understand, this happens very infrequently. As for expandability, the boards will be stackable; i.e. plug one into the Expansion port, the plug another board (or other Amiga peripheral) into the board's expansion port etc. etc. As I understand it COMSPEC has held off releasing the board because the Amiga's "autoconfig" on the expansion port has not been documented yet, this standard is what allows the COMSPEC board to be compatible with other Amiga peripherals... Apparently the autoconfig documentation will be available any second now... (Have I got that right Amiga people? Well what do I know anyway...) the COMSPEC boards should follow very shortly thereafter. The board does indeed get its power from the Amiga. Now for the bad news, the price. It is going to be somewhere in the $1000-$1500 range (not $800 as mentioned before). Those figures are in $Canadian. In any case I am *sure* that the price will go down if COMSPEC starts getting large orders. As I said before I've actually used one of these boards so here are some pros/cons -ram disk makes compiling/editing/copying/etc. much faster and generally 'nicer' -ram disk doesn't survive CTRL-Amiga-Amiga -extra memory is very useful when linking *large* programs (i.e. you can still have a other tasks going) -commercial programs don't all work from ram: mostly the problems happen with programs that are too stupid to ask for chip memory when they need it (see my other article)... I don't think it would be wise to name names. Some *copy protected* (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) programs don't like being moved into ram) This is *VERY* ****V*E*R*Y**** ANNOYING!!!!!!! At least all the utilities I tried work fine with ram: under V1.1. If you need any more information, you can contact COMSPEC in Toronto. I will be happy to provide the Address and phone number to anyone who wants it but I feel that it is unappropriate to post it here. Feel free to mail me requests for same. Send me mail, I *love* mail. DISCLAIMER: I have enjoyed a very long relationship with COMSPEC hence any or all of these view may be biased in their favour. I have tried to "stick to the facts". The University of Waterloo has nothing to do with ANY of this; I don't care where they get their ram boards from. This article does not represent the official views of either COMSPEC or The University of Waterloo. Leave them alone. Lo Song -Rico ...{utzoo,allegra,linus,decvax,ihnp4}!watmath!watnot!rmariani
kim@mips.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) (01/23/86)
> I Repeat: This is somewhat commerical, read at your own risk.... > > Now for the bad news, the price. It is going to be somewhere in the > $1000-$1500 range (not $800 as mentioned before). Those figures are > in $Canadian. In any case I am *sure* that the price will go down > if COMSPEC starts getting large orders. I would surely hope so ... I know of at least one outfit (in Texas) that is putting the finishing touches on their 8 Meg RAM board. Retail will be "less than $2K" ... sure wish they needed some more Beta-testers! > -commercial programs don't all work from ram: mostly the problems happen > with programs that are too stupid to ask for chip memory when > they need it (see my other article)... I don't think it would > be wise to name names. Some *copy protected* (wink, wink, > nudge, nudge) programs don't like being moved into ram) This > is *VERY* ****V*E*R*Y**** ANNOYING!!!!!!! At least all the > utilities I tried work fine with ram: under V1.1. Why not share your experiences with commercial programs? Software that doesn't work properly is quite frequently discussed on the net. Such "exposure" also provides considerable incentive for these manufacturers to *fix* their products. I'm sure such information would be appreciated by *most* people on the net. -- UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!mips!kim DDD: 415-960-1200 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems Inc, 1330 Charleston Rd, Mt View, CA 94043
bruceb@amiga.UUCP (Bruce Barrett) (01/24/86)
In article <11403@watnot.UUCP> rmariani@watnot.UUCP (Rico Mariani) writes: >-commercial programs don't all work from ram: mostly the problems happen > with programs that are too stupid to ask for chip memory when > they need it (see my other article)... I don't think it would ====================== > be wise to name names. ====================== I disagree! To me it is much more important to know what programs do not run on a 1 meg(+) machine than which are copy protected. Lets: a) name names b) send cards, letters and phone calls to the offenders c) Have every developer test their software in a >512k machine. --Bruce Barrett (My optinions, of course)
farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) (01/26/86)
In article <11403@watnot.UUCP>, rmariani@watnot.UUCP (Rico Mariani) writes: > matter?) with no parity checking and no wait states. Well actually > that's not *quite* true, if you try to access the same memory that is > being refreshed then the CPU may see as many as 3 wait states. From > what I understand, this happens very infrequently. As for expandability, It shouldn't happen infrequently, it should happen not at all. The design of the 68000 allows refresh to be interleaved invisibly with the memory accesses (look at how the coprocessors in the AMIGA work), so you should NEVER have to resort to wait states for refresh! If there ARE wait states, I wonder about the design... > Now for the bad news, the price. It is going to be somewhere in the > $1000-$1500 range (not $800 as mentioned before). Let's see... 2Meg = 72 256K rams @ $2.50 each - 180.00 Support chips (liberal) - 40.00 PC board and case - 25.00 for a total of $245 manufacturing cost. Given a 3 to 1 markup (not atypical) that's a cost of about $750 that I would expect to see. $1500 for 2Meg with current chip costs is a rip-off! -- Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (01/28/86)
> > Let's see... 2Meg = 72 256K rams @ $2.50 each - 180.00 > Support chips (liberal) - 40.00 > PC board and case - 25.00 > for a total of $245 manufacturing cost. Given a 3 to 1 markup (not > atypical) that's a cost of about $750 that I would expect to see. $1500 > for 2Meg with current chip costs is a rip-off! > Mike Farren > uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren > Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 Mike, consider the area they are trying to put the 72 ram chips into, assuming it fits along the side of the Amiga we are talking some Dense circuity. This in turn would suggest a multilayer board (say 8) and some very expensive CAD time. If my experience with building PCBs is any guide they are probably looking at $300 - $600 *per* bare PC board. The only boards you can get for $25 each in large quantities (and we are talking >10,000 here) are double sided without out too many holes. (board manufactures charge by Area, Layers, and Holes, and then add in a one time 'tooling' charge.) The Rams alone need 1,296 holes. If they try to save layers they might try some sort of piggy back scheme but there you are trading manufacturing complexity for board complexity. I also notice you didn't mention the cost of assembly (was that part of the 3:1 markup?) which would be significant. I would guess these boards cost *them* $750, if not more. --Chuck -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) (01/31/86)
In article <199@intelca.UUCP>, cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: > > Let's see... 2Meg = 72 256K rams @ $2.50 each - 180.00 > > Support chips (liberal) - 40.00 > > PC board and case - 25.00 > > for a total of $245 manufacturing cost. Given a 3 to 1 markup (not > > atypical) that's a cost of about $750 that I would expect to see. $1500 > > for 2Meg with current chip costs is a rip-off! > > Mike, consider the area they are trying to put the 72 ram chips into, > assuming it fits along the side of the Amiga we are talking some Dense > circuity. This in turn would suggest a multilayer board (say 8) and > some very expensive CAD time. If my experience with building PCBs is > any guide they are probably looking at $300 - $600 *per* bare PC board. First: the area along the side of the Amiga is about 4 X 12 inches. This is plenty of room for 72 RAMS - a larger area than the IBM PC standard layout for cards. Second: I don't know where you have been buying your boards. Those prices seem much more typical of the mil-spec market than they do of the commercial market. > I also notice you didn't mention the cost of assembly (was that part of > the 3:1 markup?) which would be significant. I would guess these boards > cost *them* $750, if not more. Submitted for your approval: the Tall Tree JRAM boards, which cost about $150 unstuffed, and feature a full 2M of ram. With chips, and at retail, approximately $600. This is about where I expect a 2M RAM card to be priced. Add a little more 'cause of market uncertainty of the Amiga market, but you STILL come out at considerably under $1000... -- Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/01/86)
When you have high demand and not much competition, you will see high prices if the people selling are trying to make maximum profits. A similar thing happened with the Mac third party disk and memory market, and is just starting to get reasonable after 2 years. At least with the open nature of the Amiga, you people will probably not have to wait that long! -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
STEVEH@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (02/04/86)
From: "Stephen C. Hill" <STEVEH@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Have you taken the fact into account that $CDN ~= $.75US? (I am not current on exchange rates but I seem to remember that it is in the .7 to .8 range)