dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (05/20/86)
What about those of us who bought the $450 developer's kit. Will we receive the 1.2 updates for Lattice C (Etc...). (Note: my question pertains to the extra developer's disks, not workbench and kickstart, which we will be able to get anyway from our dealer) If not, how can we obtain said materials? Thanks, -Matt
randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) (05/21/86)
In article <8605201910.AA23292@pavepaws> dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: > > What about those of us who bought the $450 developer's kit. Will >we receive the 1.2 updates for Lattice C (Etc...). (Note: my question >pertains to the extra developer's disks, not workbench and kickstart, >which we will be able to get anyway from our dealer) > Those people who purchased the $450.00 kit will receive their updates directly from Commodore. For now, we are concentrating our efforts on beta V1.2. Therefore, the update will consist of KS and WB, documentation updates. We have no information regarding the next release of the compiler, etc. Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. I suggest everyone mail in the registration post-cards. This will insure that you receive notification on updates. -- + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Randy Weiner -- Commodore Business Machines <<Amiga Technical Support>> uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!randy arpa: cbmvax!randy@seismo (or) randy@cbmvax.UUCP@{seismo | harvard} TEL: 215-431-9180
dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (05/22/86)
Thank you. -Matt
perry@well.UUCP (05/27/86)
In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: > Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime > updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, > your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update > is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. Randy, What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting to feel confident so you're starting to screw the people who made your product? Listen fella. Developers are entirely responsible for market acceptence of the Amiga. Jerk us around and cut your own throat. Got it? By the way, the 450 DID claim to include updates. Don't give us this bunk. Perry S. Kivolowitz ---------- BTW I encourage every developer to make their views known. We put up when the Amiga was a risk. We want our due and certainly what we paid for.
nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) (05/27/86)
In article <1158@well.UUCP> perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) writes: >In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: >> Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime >> updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, >> your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update >> is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. > >Randy, > What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting >to feel confident so you're starting to screw the people who made your >product? Listen fella. Developers are entirely responsible for market >acceptence of the Amiga. Jerk us around and cut your own throat. Got it? > > By the way, the 450 DID claim to include updates. Don't give us >this bunk. > > Perry S. Kivolowitz > >---------- > > BTW I encourage every developer to make their views known. > We put up when the Amiga was a risk. We want our due and > certainly what we paid for. Well put Perry. I work my ass off every night trying to get my products done. Anyone who has done serious programming knows what a hassle it is when you first start to program on the Amiga, even when you get proficient, things are still a hassle. I hope this non-update rule does not apply to the $1900 registered developers. The $450 developers are a lower class, do what you will with them. The important thing is to get the errata sheets out to the developers. Anyone can get a copy of the newest operating system. Dealers, people on the net, etc. etc. etc..... Now, will someone help me with my SPSin, SPCos routine problems. Does anyone have a program that uses SPSin, SPCos. Mandelbroth doesn't. Help! Or am I going to have to write my own Sin/Cos routines??? Also, I'd like to hear from any of you developers out there who have marketed a product. (As I am close to that stage now..) Nick HP San Diego - Where Ultra-Rogue is a way of life. (The part about the 450's being a lower class was a joke. Most of the developers I know are 450's and have done a helluva lot for the Amiga.) -- ---------- Nick V. Flor ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick "You going to help me find a Thylacine?" 'Nope' "But IBob needs the whiskers to close the gaps between our world and the next. Hideous creatures are pouring through even as we speak" 'What hideous creatures?' "Richard Simmons! John McEnroe! Mary Lou Retton! Sally Jessie Raphael! I hardly know where to stop" -- The Badger to the Wombat
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (05/28/86)
In article <1158@well.UUCP> perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) writes: >In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: >> Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime >> updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, >> your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update >> is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. > >Randy, > What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting >to feel confident so you're starting to screw the people who made your >product? Listen fella. Developers are entirely responsible for market >acceptence of the Amiga. Jerk us around and cut your own throat. Got it? > > By the way, the 450 DID claim to include updates. Don't give us >this bunk. > > Perry S. Kivolowitz > >---------- > > BTW I encourage every developer to make their views known. > We put up when the Amiga was a risk. We want our due and > certainly what we paid for. > Well, while I don't agree with the >tone< of Perry's message, I do endorse his sentiments. Commodore seems to be "screwing the people who made [the] product" both internally (by laying off vital and superior engineers) and externally (by arbitrarily cutting off support for developers, as documented above). If the Amiga is to survive, Commodore MUST learn the lessons that Apple, DRI, and Atari have learned: your developers are your life's blood. They must be encouraged -- nay, coddled -- and given every possible incentive to do their best work. The Macintosh, made by cash-flush Apple Computer, nearly failed when they forgot this. I speak not only as a developer but as a partisan of the Amiga computer who wants very much for it to succeed. It tears my guts out each time I see Commodore threatening to destroy its hope for the future. Perhaps West Chester ought to sell Amiga to a company that knows the computer business, rather than dragging the Amiga down with the ship. -- Brett Glass
mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (05/28/86)
ell.UUCP> <241@hp-sdd.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Whole Earth Lectronic Link, Sausalito CA Keywords: I hope you people at West Chester realize the wisdom of a little extra money spent on intelligent support services. We here on the West Coast, including Electronic Arts, Aegis, and many other developers and artists working with the Amiga, deserve and require continued support for the Los Gatos facility. A computer is made from the sum total of the quality work done on the machine, and there is a many-fold return on the dollar for local, direct, and frank technical support for the people trying to do this quality work. I realize you at West Chester are going to do your damndnest, but I hope you can appreciate our desire for the healthy continuation of the development and support work done at Los Gatos in the past few months. A great deal of the Amiga's initial success has been due to the creative work done there, and every effort you put in continuing that creativity will return to you many times over. There has been a dampening of enthusiasm for the Amiga due to the problems reported here, but especially due to the perception that Los Gatos is not getting the continued support it deserves. I am aware of one company that is suspending work for the Amiga because of this perception, and even AutoDesk had been contemplating work for the Amiga, but the diminishment of Los Gatos support has caused one developer out here to say that they are holding off on Amiga development as a result. For the small savings in operational expenses you get from diminishing Los Gatos you get a massive future loss of revenue because there will be a backlash of cancelled or postponed projects that otherwise would have gone ahead for the Amiga. This is irresponsible and unwise, and I hope you will do your best to bolster the Los Gatos facility even in this difficult period.
mykes@3comvax.UUCP (05/28/86)
I am not an official developer, but only because I did not want to spend $450 for a compiler and assembler that I would not want to use, and for manuals that I could buy for $85 in the store. I do not feel that I should pay to get support from CBM, because in return for their support, I am supporting them (i.e. maybe my products will sell an Amiga or two). However, Randy Weiner's announcement that those who did pay the $450 to get support will not be getting it in the future is totally contrary to what's been going on at CBM and Amiga these days. First of all, since day one, the Amiga has been billed as a third party supported machine. Second, CBM just fired the people who were capable of providing Amiga applications for the CBM label. And third, CBM (probably unaware of the fracus is would cause) announces diminished support for their third part developers. Listen folks, I have never felt so confident that the Amiga is going to be a big big success. The layoffs are coming at the most opportune time, as far as the computer is concerned. InfoWorld revued the Amiga very early in its history, and gave it bad reviews because the software crashed a lot. They revued version 1.0 of the software, which those of us who used it know was very buggy. I got my copy of 1.1 a week before the InfoWorld revue hit the stands, and 1.1 has been a 1000% improvement. 1.1 has been in 3rd party developers' hands for a long time now, and more than a few applications have had a decent operating system to be developed under. Now 1.2 is about to come out, and future machines will have 1.2 Kickstart (Rom Kernel) in real ROM. Despite the power and flexability of having this stuff in the write-once store on present Amigas, future machines can be made cheaper due to the layoffs and the fact that Rom is cheaper than Ram. 1.2 figures to be much improved over 1.1, with much more power and speed and with many more bugs fixed. 1.2 and ROM may spell DOOM for a few people we became close to (we'll miss Bob Parisseau and all the others who have contributed to our understanding of the technology of this great machine), but it also means that for the first time, the Amiga is actually a finished product. As soon as they are available, I'm buying a 1MB ram card from Cardco (Witchita Kansas, sorry no other info at my fingertips). I can't wait to get genlock, a frame grabber/digitizer, an audio digitizer, a hard disk, a 68020, more Ram, and especially the Sidecar (me and 50,000 other Amiga owners :). The sidecar is actually the most interesting product I have heard about - it provides me with IBM compatible slots so I can buy cheapo IBM peripherals anywhere for my amiga. Hard cards (30MB of hard disk on an IBM card) and Ram will be most useful. Oh yeah, as a side benefit, you also can run IBM PC software (right now, it would be nice, but Amiga applications figure to be presented so much better). CBM has a far superior product to anything in the Micro market, and it is really a shame that they are being run by the banks. It's also a shame that CBM has never known what they got when they got the Amiga. CBM has probably sold more computers than ANYONE, including IBM (count all those Vic 20s, Pets, C64s, 128s, and Amigas). With the Amiga, they will continue to sell more for years to come. Atari is not necessarily blowing the Amiga out of the water, but they do have a nice machine for less money. A lot of people who already have Ataris probably already have them on the shelf. A lot of people who will be buying computers will be buying the Amiga. By September, I expect a flood of completed Amiga software and hardware products, and hopefully CBM will at least give the machine a chance with a little support - like good relations with the 3rd parties it is relying on (are we ready to take the blame if the machine fails? :) and good advertising (no wonder the banks took over after CBM piddled $40 Million down the drain on weak ads). my $.02
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (05/29/86)
In article <1158@well.UUCP>, perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) writes: > In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: > > Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime > > updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, > > your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update > > is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. > > Randy, > What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting > to feel confident so you're starting to screw the people who made your > product? Listen fella. Developers are entirely responsible for market > acceptence of the Amiga. Jerk us around and cut your own throat. Got it? > > By the way, the 450 DID claim to include updates. Don't give us > this bunk. > > Perry S. Kivolowitz > > ---------- > > BTW I encourage every developer to make their views known. > We put up when the Amiga was a risk. We want our due and > certainly what we paid for. Fine, since you asked (or encouraged). I think C-A has been MORE than reasonable with their update policy. Look Perry, you write for a magazine right? You KNOW printing costs money. Disks cost money. Mailing costs money. Money is THE one thing C-A CAN NOT SQUANDER at this point in time. Damn I've receive one free update (1.1) already. And that included two HUGE 1.1 RKM manuals. They are damn expensive to print! $400 bucks for Manx C gets me one free year of updates, probably work out to two updates. So why should $450 get you lifetime updates? One or two is VERY reasonable given the current software market policies. So in short, fine CBM-Amiga. If 1.2 is my last freebie, so be it. I enjoy programming the Amiga and want THE lastest tools. So if I wanna play I got pay. Now if the update prices are unreasonable, THEN I'll be singing anther tune!!
san@bubba.UUCP (05/30/86)
Perhaps all of my opinions have been expressed at some other time, but what the
hell, I'll take that chance, so... here's some rambling!
My background with the Amiga is as follows, I am a registered developer
(via buying the developers machine from CBM) and have been so since late '85.
Because of this, I can only speak from that point of view, while venturing
opinions on other peoples situation.
I have appreciated all of the efforts that the technical (and other) staff
at CBM have made to help developers. It appears that there may be some
confusion as to what qualifies as a developer and/or what qualifies as
a supported developer, etc. Perhaps the clarification was not made up
front, I dont know, but I've seen it here on the net recently. It
appears to me that if you consider the $450 package from CBM to be like
any other commercial software package, their support policy is very generous,
and in fact appears to be better than most.
I am very happy with the level of support (which includes updates) I have
received from CBM. They have been prompt with updates, their
technical staff is easily accessible (and in fact many of them were reached
by calling CBM and asking for people I saw on the net (y'all are doubly
appreciated !)), and in general I don't have any complaints. Please note
that I am NOT differentiating between the people in WestChester or Los Gatos,
because I haven't been keeping a score card on indiviuals or groups, but
just one scorecard on the whole ball-of-wax, i.e. lets not start prophesing
doom just because the people in Pa. are now taking up the reins.
Concerning the issues of layoffs, unquestionably it is disappointing, but
I (for one) will not pretend to be familiar with Commodores whole situation,
from the outside it is disappointing that these people will not be working
with Commodore anymore, and can there be any question that the people we have
all heard of will be missed in many ways? Unfortunately, it (seems to be)
that the nature of business is such that a large number of issues must be
dealt with, and that what may appear to us as a mistake, may be in
Commodores best interest. On the other hand, they could be *royally*
screwing up , I don't know, I just don't have enough info. (and probably never
will, as I'm not "tight" with people inside Commodore :-).
I don't intend to sound like someone merrily skipping to whatever beat they
provide me with, but I do wish to say I'm generally happy w/CBM. I don't
envy their position, CBM is a company trying to do the things which most
other companies in the US do, compete, make a profit and stay alive (to
list a few). I seriously doubt that anyone who is trying to develop for
the Amiga could claim to have not at least suspected that CBM was shaky,
that was an issue way back in the middle of '85, as it is now.
To anyone who feels strongly about issues w/CBM, I seriously suggest that
you write to someone at CBM (such as the CEO/President). Posting
psuedo-political articles on the net is usefull, but I rather doubt that
the top management reads USENET.
After all of this serious writing, I can't help wondering whether any one
of us could get this stirred up over an IBM-PC... &-}
Steve
--
Steve Sanderson, COSI Texas
4412 Spicewood Springs, Suite 801 Austin, Texas 78759
UUCP: {ihnp4, seismo, ctvax}!ut-sally!cositex!san, san@cositex.UUCP
AT&T: (512) 345-2780dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (05/31/86)
Well, I'm a $450 developer. I don't care about FREE updates.... $10-$20 is fine with me, but I do wish Commodore-Amiga would get off their ass and push Lattice into fixing the 'official' C compiler. So far, all I see is a port from their generic junk (for other microcomputers), hacked up for the 68000... They probably even use the same stdio library. -Matt
mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (06/01/86)
ell.UUCP> <1162@well.UUCP> <524@3comvax.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Whole Earth Lectronic Link, Sausalito CA Keywords: I sincerely hope you people at Commodore realize the step you are taking in reducing third-party developer support. You may think you are saving the bottom line, but increasingly developers have been suspending projects out here (on the West Coast) because they hear of what you are doing to Los Gatos. I hate to post this publicly, because I love my Amiga and I do not want to hurt its chances in the market, but I feel strong words are necessary to make you guys in Pennsylvania listen up. THIS IS A STUPID MOVE. You are alienating developers and hurting your own future. The Amiga may not be the Number 1 seller in your inventory, but it sure is your only chance to survive in the future. If you blow this one, you're not going to get a second chance. There are new graphics chips coming out from the chip makers, and your only advantage at this point is the strong third-party development community you have behind the Amiga, and the year and a half or so head start you have over every other manufacturer (as far as an affordable blitter-based graphics engine is concerned). THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE, SO DON'T SQUANDER IT. The Commodore 64 is not going to last forever. The political situation in West Chester obviously is favoring the C-64 and -128 people, since they are the ones selling the most machines, but you Americans should wake up and realize that politics is not the way to run a company. Every time politics has taken over, the company suffers; look at GM, look at Apple during the Mac-II wars. Perhaps it is inevitable what you are doing to Los Gatos; if that is really true, forgive me. But I don't think so. Please put away your egos and wake up to the fact that the Amiga is the most valuable egg in your basket, and quit f-----g with us. Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP) *FLAME OFF*
kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) (06/02/86)
In article <444@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: >In article <1158@well.UUCP>, perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) writes: >> In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: >> > Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime >> > updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, >> What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting >> to feel confident so you're starting to screw the people who made your >> product? Listen fella. Developers are entirely responsible for market >> >I think C-A has been MORE than reasonable with their update policy. I too, think that making 1.2 our last free update is perfectly reasonable. C-A can hardly be expected to keep shelling out the $$ it costs for updates indefinately. However, I (and several other developers I expect) would certainly appreciate it if C-A would figure out some way to provide for update of the graphics chip so that the early developers can get the version that supports 'halfbrite' mode. C-A can charge enough to cover expenses (and I don't care if they have to take orders in advance to do it). Keith Doyle
ross@ulowell.UUCP (Ross) (06/03/86)
In article <444@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: >In article <1158@well.UUCP>, perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) writes: >> In article <269@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, randy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Randy Weiner) writes: >> > Please note, the $450.00 does not include free-lifetime >> > updates. The 1.2 update will probably be your last. In either case, >> > your name(s) will be maintained on our mailing list. When an update >> > is available, you will be notified as to how and when to obtain it. >> >> Randy, >> What kind of cheap shot is this? Whatsa matter you guys starting >> ... > >Fine, since you asked (or encouraged). >I think C-A has been MORE than reasonable with their update policy. >Look Perry, you write for a magazine right? You KNOW printing costs money. >Disks cost money. Mailing costs money. Money is THE one thing C-A CAN NOT >SQUANDER at this point in time. Damn I've receive one free update (1.1) >already. And that included two HUGE 1.1 RKM manuals. They are damn >expensive to print! > >$400 bucks for Manx C gets me one free year of updates, probably work out to >two updates. So why should $450 get you lifetime updates? One or two is >VERY reasonable given the current software market policies. > >So in short, fine CBM-Amiga. If 1.2 is my last freebie, so be it. I enjoy >programming the Amiga and want THE lastest tools. So if I wanna play I got >pay. > >Now if the update prices are unreasonable, THEN I'll be singing anther >tune!! Fine, I signed a ten year non-disclosure agreement with Commodore, so I should get ten years of free updates. Hmmm, I wonder if breach of contract sneaks in here; just kidding. I think that Commodore has done a great support job, but I am really working on a product and if I don't get free updates then I will not bother to update the product for the updates that Commodore produces. The end result for the Amiga market if many developers like myself do this, Chaos! Ross Miller "The excecutioner shall soon live."
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (06/03/86)
In article <1193@well.UUCP>, kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) writes: > However, I (and several other developers I expect) would certainly > appreciate it if C-A would figure out some way to provide for update of the > graphics chip so that the early developers can get the version that supports > 'halfbrite' mode. C-A can charge enough to cover expenses (and I don't > care if they have to take orders in advance to do it). > > Keith Doyle Funny you should mention this Keith. I've mentioned the subject several times to C-A with no response. I had an idea or two that would've fit nicely into the 'half-brite' mode. Alas, my Amiga won't perculate (SP?) with that mode (sniff). I even offered to send back the old ones if they wanted them (I don't know why). But never got a response. Odds are we wouldn't like the price they'd have to charge anyways 8->. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {allegra,seismo}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company <Kodak won't be responsible for the above comments, only those below>
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (06/04/86)
In article <368@ulowell.UUCP> ross@ulowell.UUCP (Ross) writes: >Fine, I signed a ten year non-disclosure agreement with Commodore, so I >should get ten years of free updates. Hmmm, I wonder if breach of contract >sneaks in here; just kidding. I think that Commodore has done a great >support job, but I am really working on a product and if I don't get free >updates then I will not bother to update the product for the updates that >Commodore produces. The end result for the Amiga market if many developers >like myself do this, Chaos! > > Ross Miller > > "The excecutioner shall soon live." In other words Ross, you'd let your possibly profitable product die a slow death because updates from CBM were not free. Forgive me, but this seems like cutting your nose off to spite your face. A customer updates or buys the lastest Amiga with the new rev OS. Sees your product, buys it, gets it home. He tries to use it and something in the program crashes the Amiga due to new code in the OS. He calls you. "Hey your program just crashed my computer." You: " Well what version of Kickstart are you using?" Customer: "Whats that?" You: "The software that starts your Amiga." Customer: "Ummm... I don't know I just bought it." You: "Then you probably have a new version that we don't support." Customer: "WHAT! It said 512k 2 drive Amiga on the package." You "I'm sorry. But we just don't support the new release. Perhaps you can take it back to the place you bought it and get a refund." Customer: "But... but.. my dealer's 60 miles away!" You: "I'm sorry, there's nothing else I can do. You see since CBM won't upgrade our software for free, we're not upgrading our package for the new Amiga kickstart." Customer: " You mean CBM gives away software for free? Where can I get it?" You: "No No. Not consumer software, just developers. You see we paid $450 for software from CBM and now they say they can't or won't give us free updates. " Customer: "But your software says updates are available for $30. How come your updates aren't free? Updates? What am I saying! Your package doesn't even RUN! I just dumped $xxx for your software!! Besides at work we had to pay $125 to upgrade our Lotus 123 and another $xxx for Framework. So what's the difference?" You: "Well we're developers. I'm really sorry but..<CLICK>.... Hello? Hello?" Now our intrepid consumer tries to get his money back. Unfortunatly the shrink wrap licensing agreement states that no promises are made that this program will run on anything. So after a lengthy battle he exchanges your package for a $6 mouse pad, vowing to never buy any software from that dealer or your company again. The dealer takes two valium and vows never to purchase your software from the distributer, since it doesn't run on the Amiga anyways and also has visions of false claims legal action.. etc. Note: The above is fiction but serves to get the point across. Also is somewhat tongue in cheek..but again a point is made. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {allegra,seismo}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company <Kodak won't be responsible for the above comments, only those below>