jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) (05/25/86)
-*-text-*-
OK. Granted, the Amiga is a great computer. And, I'm getting me one of
those suckers, because it's simply a better computer than an IBM
PEE-BRAIN or whatever else is in that price range.
HOWEVER:
What's a great computer like the Amiga doing being marketed by a bunch
of clowns like Commodore??
Suggestions:
a) The Amiga dealer network is being destroyed by local reps favoring
stereo/electronics stores over "real" computer stores. The
requirements that all Amiga stores have on-site repair facilities and
a technical support person should be adhered to, instead of being
waived for every Federated Video that comes along.
b) The hardware people should be working on low-cost hard disk drives and
RAM expansions, not modems, or should be helping 3rd parties who do
plan to bring out low-cost hard disk drives and RAM expansions (there
are none now).
c) In conjunction with b) above, price the expansion bus addition VERY
reasonably.
Symptoms of the problems:
1) a deal with CRAY for Amigas is being held up because of a feud
between the dealer who got CRAY interested and the local distributor
for CBM, who's mad at that dealer because the dealer got a
grey-marketer shut down and hurt the distributor's volume.
Apple or IBM would have given the dealer a medal.
2) Soon, tne Amiga is going to be marketed thru the electronic
equivalent of a K-MART, Federated Video or something like that. So
much for dealer network... Federated will drive them all under.
3) We hear lots of marketing hype about Answermate modems and
Frame-grabbers and all sorts of junk like that. Well, I have news for
you. What businessmen want is
a) a cheap hard disk so that you don't have to listen to the
floppies grind and
b) cheap mungo RAM so you can calculate spreadsheets that would make
IBM folk green with envy.
Neither I or most others care a single twit about Yet Another Modem
(even if it's a particularly good one) or Show Off The Graphics. We
want to do work on the machine, not set it in front of the office for
a rolling demo. One True Blue friend is impressed with the Amiga, but
says with floppies it's just the World's Fastest Game Machine.
4) The CBM advertising campaign has been simply dismal. First they
try marketing the Amiga like they marketed the C-64, now they have
some silly "your supercharged multi-tasking speed demon" or something
like that, which would be a decent thing to point out, but not in such
a hokey unprofessional manner. Where did CBM get their ad people from,
Des Moines, Iowa?
5) Executive ineptitude at CBM is simply horrendous. The C-64 has
been their "cash cow" for quite a while now, and looks like it'll stay
that way for quite a while. So what does CBM do? Discontinue
production of the C-64 a few times, once right before Christmas 85
(hoards of anxious mothers loitered outside the local Commodore stores
wanting to buy C-64s, and not a single one was to be found).
6) A "hacker" mentality at Commodore-Amiga (e.g. "GURU MEDITATION"
instead of "SYSTEM CRASH") doesn't help CBM's professionalism image.
An example of the dealer network problems:
In Houston, an unauthorized dealer, Colonel Video or something like
that, has sold over 900 Amigas, through cut-rate prices and mucho
advertising. When those customers want support, they go to the
authorized dealer, who is pi$$ed. So the local dealer goes thru
Colonel Video's garbage bin and finds the reciept of the Amiga dealer
who's selling Colonel their stock on the gray market, and gets that
Amiga dealer shut down. The next day Colonel has a new source, and the
local Amiga dealer cannot get stock, and has to buy Amigas on the gray
market himself. Why? Simple. Colonel has sold twice as many Amigas.
Bigger is Better. In the meantime, the IBM people look pompous and say
"Well, maybe it's faster and cheaper, but WE have SUPPORT". And the
only way to get that support, without which the IBM people won't look
at the Amiga, is through a dealer network. But CBM is destroying
theirs through foolishness like the above. Pure shortsightedness.
And another local example, involving another similiar
stereo/electronics store with no service department, no technical
support person available, etc... but I shan't bore you with the
details, you can guess them already.
--
Computing from the Bayous,
Eric Green akgua!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10
(Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509)jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (05/30/86)
I hacked quite a bit off the original..... In article <260@usl-pc.UUCP>, jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) writes: > -*-text-*- > > OK. Granted, the Amiga is a great computer. And, I'm getting me one of > those suckers, because it's simply a better computer than an IBM > PEE-BRAIN or whatever else is in that price range. > > HOWEVER: > > What's a great computer like the Amiga doing being marketed by a bunch > of clowns like Commodore?? > > Suggestions: > a) The Amiga dealer network is being destroyed by local reps favoring > stereo/electronics stores over "real" computer stores. The > requirements that all Amiga stores have on-site repair facilities and > a technical support person should be adhered to, instead of being > waived for every Federated Video that comes along. > b) The hardware people should be working on low-cost hard disk drives and > RAM expansions, not modems, or should be helping 3rd parties who do > plan to bring out low-cost hard disk drives and RAM expansions (there > are none now). Now here is the first good point Eric brings up. As I posted once before, how does CBM-Amiga expect to gain confidence in the Amiga if they won't/can't support the Amiga with a reasonable hard disk and memory exapansion. Have they looked at the size of the code generated by their officially supported compilers? The present 68000 based compilers are memory pigs (with an exception here or there). Indeed the 68k family are memory pigs. I love the CPU, but it's a mem hog. 512k for the Amiga is like 256k for the Pee Cee, BARE MINIMUM. Are you listening CBM? Sure software is high on the priority list, but remember to develop software and remain sane at the sane time a developer needs a hardware environment that does constantly get in THE BLOODY WAY!! > c) In conjunction with b) above, price the expansion bus addition VERY > reasonably. > They should, but they wouldn't. > Symptoms of the problems: > 1) a deal with CRAY for Amigas is being held up because of a feud > between the dealer who got CRAY interested and the local distributor > for CBM, who's mad at that dealer because the dealer got a > grey-marketer shut down and hurt the distributor's volume. > Apple or IBM would have given the dealer a medal. Well C-A? True or false or "we don't comment on that sort of thing"? > b) cheap mungo RAM so you can calculate spreadsheets that would make > IBM folk green with envy. Wonder if they realize that a very cheap 2-8meg (lotsa empty RAM sockets) expansion coupled with Itelligent disk caching could make up for the lack of a decent hard disk? > Neither I or most others care a single twit about Yet Another Modem > (even if it's a particularly good one) or Show Off The Graphics. We The Amiga DOES suffer from to many YAM's. But that's all anyones figured out how to do with the present RAM/storage limitations (coupled with compiler technology). With decent expansion options (that people can afford) you can let the compiler/programmer go nuts, with little to no regard for size , and consequently not worry about your task stopping other from running due to lack of available memory. That goes double for a multitasking machine with no paged virtual memory system. > 4) The CBM advertising campaign has been simply dismal. First they > try marketing the Amiga like they marketed the C-64, now they have > some silly "your supercharged multi-tasking speed demon" or something > like that, which would be a decent thing to point out, but not in such > a hokey unprofessional manner. Where did CBM get their ad people from, > Des Moines, Iowa? Agreed, 'nuff said? > 6) A "hacker" mentality at Commodore-Amiga (e.g. "GURU MEDITATION" > instead of "SYSTEM CRASH") doesn't help CBM's professionalism image. > Well it's better than IBM's keyboard beeping at you when it locks up 8-)
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (05/30/86)
::
Refer to article from Eric Green speaking of Colonel Video, Federated,
and other claimed screw-ups by Commodore Sales. The following remarks
are posted on behalf of Don Reisinger, Amiga Western Regional Sales Manager.
Mr. Green has made a number of assumptions not based on fact which are
patently false. He made some suggestions that are of value and are
directions Commodore has already implemented.
Regarding the Colonel Video story, no Amiga dealer is unable to get product
unless they are not credit worthy. Regarding Federated, assumptions
on Federated's effect on the market and marketing stature are premature
and will be proven false, as well.
See first Federated advertisement 5/24/86 for their prices.
Lastly on Federated, the Amiga is the first step in a well-prepared
marketing plan by Federated to upgrade their computer departments.
Look for major "name-brand" additions to the Federated assortment.daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (05/30/86)
> > -*-text-*- > > OK. Granted, the Amiga is a great computer. And, I'm getting me one of > those suckers, because it's simply a better computer than an IBM > PEE-BRAIN or whatever else is in that price range. ... Can't argue with that, and I can't say anything pro/con marketing, as I'm not a marketing expert (though personally I feel that the new commercials are good, and the old ones were kind of stupid. From the point of view of a techie, however, not John Q. Public). > b) The hardware people should be working on low-cost hard disk drives and > RAM expansions, not modems, or should be helping 3rd parties who do > plan to bring out low-cost hard disk drives and RAM expansions (there > are none now). Well, lets see. CardCo 1 Meg expansion (aMEGA), list somewhere around $550. Parts: RAM, assuming 256Kx1 parts, is 32 * $2.20 (reasonable Japan/Honk Kong price for mass quantity) = $70.40. Add in refresh circuity, auto expansion circuitry, at least another $10-$15. Caps, resistors, etc. $1.00. PCB, $4.00. Case unit cost, $10.00. Boxes, manuals, etc. $5.00. Manufacturing and shipping, $5.00. So that's around $110.00 for cost of manufacture, thinking on the CHEAP side. That doesn't cover ANY of the development costs (a custom-made plastic case tool can cost $50K-100K, no problem, etc.). Add in advertising, manufacturer, distributer and retailer markups, etc. and your're talking $350.00 to $400.00, and that's once the product has matured. Cover some development costs and you'd probably find it around for maybe $450.00 to $475.00 on discount, initially. An expansion box mounted unit would of course be cheaper, but no one's going to sell one until we al have expansion boxes, unless they sell the box too. > Symptoms of the problems: > 1) a deal with CRAY for Amigas is being held up because of a feud > between the dealer who got CRAY interested and the local distributor > for CBM, who's mad at that dealer because the dealer got a > grey-marketer shut down and hurt the distributor's volume. > Apple or IBM would have given the dealer a medal. See how Apple coddles to the grey market these days. These are the same guys who'll be selling MAC ROMs to Amiga and Atari ST owners who want to run MAC software on their machines. > 3) We hear lots of marketing hype about Answermate modems and > Frame-grabbers and all sorts of junk like that. Well, I have news for > you. What businessmen want is > a) a cheap hard disk so that you don't have to listen to the > floppies grind and > b) cheap mungo RAM so you can calculate spreadsheets that would make > IBM folk green with envy. See above for mungo RAM. Maybe that's what business types want, though they'll as likely insist on having Lotus 1-2-3 running just as in the PeeCee so that you won't be able to take advantage of all of that RAM. And that's just business. You've forgotten about what artists, musicians, designers, engineers, broadcasters, housewives, architects, newspeople, <ad infinitum> want. Though for the most part, so has IBM, and I guess it really hasn't hurt them. There's nothing wrong with being acceptable to business. But business people [1] Are happy with IBM, and the hardcores will continue to buy only IBM. If Amiga offers nothing different, they've got no reason to look elsewhere. [2] Most large businesses don't care at all about the cost difference between a $500 hard disk and a $1500 hard disk. They bought $3000-$4000 IBM systems with expensive 20 Meg hard drives. An Amiga at $2000-$2500 with a 40 Meg hard drive and several times the power of a Pee Cee. > Where did CBM get their ad people from, Des Moines, Iowa? Well, I think some of the marketing group came from PepsiCo, and some from Apple. > So what does CBM do? Discontinue production of the C-64 a few times, once > right before Christmas 85 (hoards of anxious mothers loitered outside the > local Commodore stores wanting to buy C-64s, and not a single one was to be > found). Much of CBM's loss last year was do to writeoffs against overstocks of C64s. They did sell much better than projected for the Christmas season, much due to the release of the C128 in early fall. C64s were in demand, though not quite in the frenzy situation you describe. Still, backorders were submitted during the Christmas season, and they weren't withdrawn afterwards as they usually are in this business. > 6) A "hacker" mentality at Commodore-Amiga (e.g. "GURU MEDITATION" > instead of "SYSTEM CRASH") doesn't help CBM's professionalism image. Perhaps not. Though if you had corporate type writing the software, the system wouldn't run at all, and though I'm not in any ways a marketing professional, I believe that would damage our corporate image more. > Computing from the Bayous, > Eric Green akgua!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10 > (Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509) -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Dave Haynie {caip,inhp4,allegra,seismo}!cbmvax!daveh "Let me control a planet's oxygen supply, and I don't care who makes the laws" -Great Culuthu's Starry Wisdom Band \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
richr@pogo.UUCP (Rich Rodgers) (05/31/86)
In article <260@usl-pc.UUCP> jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) writes: > >What's a great computer like the Amiga doing being marketed by a bunch >of clowns like Commodore?? No Comment > >Suggestions: > b) The hardware people should be working on low-cost hard disk drives and >RAM expansions, not modems, or should be helping 3rd parties who do >plan to bring out low-cost hard disk drives and RAM expansions (there >are none now). There is no argument that the expansion architecture should have been done long before now. It is now completed tho' so you can expect to see some companies coming out with exactly these items. > c) In conjunction with b) above, price the expansion bus addition VERY >reasonably. > a) a cheap hard disk so that you don't have to listen to the >floppies grind and > b) cheap mungo RAM so you can calculate spreadsheets that would make >IBM folk green with envy. Could you define what you consider "cheap". I would really be interested. I have a feeling that what you want is about 6 to 8 weeks away from hitting the market. A bit late, but the best that could be done under the constraints of a changing hardware specification. >-- >Computing from the Bayous, > Eric Green akgua!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10 > (Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509) -- Rich Rodgers tektronix!pogo!richr
dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (05/31/86)
Ha. Commodore's list of mistakes is rather huge... and all are directly resultant from an attempt to cut-costs and a lack of competent management of programmers. I would like to reiterate my request: Of all the things you do to the Amiga, DO NOT REPLACE KICKSTART WITH ROMS!. Don't be an idiot. The MAC went along the wrong road. IBM went along the right road (well, to a point). There are obviously going to be great improvments ... no, wait a minute, you just fired ... well, ok then... perhaps there won't be any great future improvments. But at least we'll all still be around. Right guys! guys? hello hello?... -Matt "sorrowful" Dillon A short list of software mistakes: The drive OS for all their disk drives Every piece of support software that Commodore ever developed for the C-64, and most of the stuff they developed for the PET. A short list of hardware mistakes: Using non-standard IEEE Running a disk port via a serial line and completely in software (effective baud rate = 1000) (C-64), (so it wouldn't compete with they business models???) Flubbing the C-64 RS-232 B-A-D-L-Y. (software again) Drilling holes through the PC board in an attempt to force users to not upgrade the computer themselves (PETs 20xx 40xx)?!?!?
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (06/02/86)
In article <8605310929.AA01097@pavepaws> dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: > > Ha. Commodore's list of mistakes is rather huge... and all are >directly resultant from an attempt to cut-costs and a lack of competent >management of programmers. [of course you wouldn't have made any mistakes? 8-] > I would like to reiterate my request: Of all >the things you do to the Amiga, DO NOT REPLACE KICKSTART WITH ROMS!. Don't >be an idiot. The MAC went along the wrong road. IBM went along the >right road (well, to a point). There are obviously going to be great >improvments ... no, wait a minute, you just fired ... well, ok then... >perhaps there won't be any great future improvments. > > But at least we'll all still be around. Right guys! guys? hello >hello?... > > -Matt "sorrowful" Dillon Matt - be assured that the ROM/Kickstart issue is getting plenty of discussion, but remember that the ROM emulation costs much more than the ROMs would. In the real world, a product that costs more to make sells for a higher price, at least in a competitive market. The Amiga user community, not to mention Commodore, loses everytime someone looks at the Amiga and then chokes on the pricetag. [non-amiga discussion follows...] >A short list of software mistakes: > The drive OS for all their disk drives > > Every piece of support software that Commodore ever developed for > the C-64, and most of the stuff they developed for the PET. Yeah, it's nothing special, but like the C64, it works and it's cheap. The software for the TI99/4A was much better, especially the OS, but in the end that didn't amount to a flower on their grave... >A short list of hardware mistakes: > Using non-standard IEEE A cost issue - real IEEE controller chips were expensive. > Running a disk port via a serial line and completely in > software (effective baud rate = 1000) (C-64), (so it wouldn't > compete with they business models???) This wasn't intentional - the VIC20 I/O chip had hardware support for the serial bus, but it it was broken and couldn't be fixed in time for production. Once the bit bashing code made it into the drives, the CPU was stuck with the slow transfer rates. Compatability can be a very expensive issue. > Flubbing the C-64 RS-232 B-A-D-L-Y. (software again) If RS232 had cost money, it wouldn't have been included. A couple of I/O lines and some bit-bashing code was cheap. True the code isn't quite right, but I guess it tested out ok at 300 baud... > Drilling holes through the PC board in an attempt to force > users to not upgrade the computer themselves (PETs 20xx 40xx)?!?!? These people are now bringing you the Atari 520ST and 1040ST. There's not much room for elegance in a entry level consumer machine. It either adds cost or takes development time. The C64 and thence Commodore survived/won the home computer wars because they could deliver the cheapest product that did what was needed. -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) (06/03/86)
In article <448@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: > >In article <260@usl-pc.UUCP>, jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) writes: >> -*-text-*- >> >> HOWEVER: >> >> What's a great computer like the Amiga doing being marketed by a bunch >> of clowns like Commodore?? ... >> b) The hardware people should be working on low-cost hard disk drives and >> RAM expansions, not modems, or should be helping 3rd parties who do >> plan to bring out low-cost hard disk drives and RAM expansions (there >> are none now). > >Now here is the first good point Eric brings up. As I posted once before, >how does CBM-Amiga expect to gain confidence in the Amiga if they >won't/can't support the Amiga with a reasonable hard disk and memory >exapansion. Have they looked at the size of the code generated by their >officially supported compilers? The present 68000 based compilers are >memory pigs (with an exception here or there). Indeed the 68k family are >memory pigs. I love the CPU, but it's a mem hog. 512k for the Amiga is >like 256k for the Pee Cee, BARE MINIMUM. Are you listening CBM? Sure >software is high on the priority list, but remember to develop software >and remain sane at the sane time a developer needs a hardware environment >that does constantly get in THE BLOODY WAY!! In part, the large object code size is due to large contiguous addressing space. That's the price of the architecture, but it's worth it. The Intel family fans are about to find this out too with the '386's. Still, there are anomalies which have me baffled. I hear that the Lattice compiler churns out unnecessarily large code. True? > >> c) In conjunction with b) above, price the expansion bus addition VERY >> reasonably. >> >They should, but they wouldn't. > > > >> b) cheap mungo RAM so you can calculate spreadsheets that would make >> IBM folk green with envy. > >Wonder if they realize that a very cheap 2-8meg (lotsa empty RAM sockets) >expansion coupled with Itelligent disk caching could make up for the lack >of a decent hard disk? Actually, it doesn't. Wait till you have a power out with all your stuff in RAM disk after hours of work. Of course, you *may* be able to afford an uninterrupted power supply. One large enough for you to backup back onto floppies before powering down. Then again, I think you'll find these cost more than most hard disks. Not unusually cheap hard disks either, but ones you might be able to find off the shelf. (I assume there are at least *some* hard disk systems available at this point for the Amiga and your complaint is solely price.) > >> Neither I or most others care a single twit about Yet Another Modem >> (even if it's a particularly good one) or Show Off The Graphics. We > >The Amiga DOES suffer from to many YAM's. But that's all anyones figured >out how to do with the present RAM/storage limitations (coupled with compiler >technology). With decent expansion options (that people can afford) you >can let the compiler/programmer go nuts, with little to no regard for size >, and consequently not worry about your task stopping other from running >due to lack of available memory. That goes double for a multitasking >machine with no paged virtual memory system. You mean Modem *programs*? If that's what you mean, then the abundance of modem programs is likely more a result of the fetishes of the type of people 'here' on the net than the current tools. Hey, this bunch is telecom oriented. Besides, we all have good text editors now (MicroEMACS) and formatters (PROFF), games (HACK) and utilities. Database manages take time. They also aren't much fun to write and when done tend to be sold commercially rather than given away. > > >> 4) The CBM advertising campaign has been simply dismal. First they ... >> a hokey unprofessional manner. Where did CBM get their ad people from, >> Des Moines, Iowa? OK Turkey, What you got against Des Moines, Iowa! :-) -- James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura (416) 652-3880
jpdres10@usl-pc.UUCP (Green Eric Lee) (06/06/86)
Good news: Infoworld says that CBM has announced that they are designing an A-2000, and that it will definitely have provisions for a low-cost hard disk, low-cost IBM emulation, 1 megabyte built-in RAM, expansion card cage, and other Needed Things. Somebody else hints at Unix capability. If the Unix rumor is true, it may have a 68010 with empty MMU socket nearby. Maybe CBM's new head exec. knows what he's doing after all... Mr. Green? When does anybody ever call a scraggly 22 year old programmer "Mr."? Now, for responses about the responses: > From: daveh@cbmvax.UUCP > CardCo 1 Meg expansion (aMEGA), list somewhere around $550. My dealer called CardCo, CardCo said it wasn't ready. > You've forgotten about what artists, musicians, > designers, engineers, broadcasters, housewives, architects, newspeople, > <ad infinitum> want. Business sales are over 90% of all computer sales in the Amiga price range. Surveyors etc. are not enough to keep my dealer in business. The success of IBM clones prove that Fortune 500 is not American Business. Small businesses are over half of all business. They want a machine that'll do what they need for the best price. A small company I worked for bought a Leading Edge when they saw that even a 64 helped them with their business. The complete Leading Edge, with 10 meg disk, costed $1995. A 10 meg disk for the Amiga costs $1599. Besides, others want more RAM and a hard drive too... think of how much space a 3-d picture produced by a drafting program takes up. Re: most people would rather be using the IBM emulator & 123 instead of an Amiga with 8 meg of RAM: The biggest customers of VIP Deluxe here are people who use IBM PCs at work and use VIP to eat their 123 files at home. 'Nuff said. They'd love lots of cheap RAM. > (around Christmas) C64s were in demand, though not quite in the > frenzy situation you describe. For the entire month of December and into January there was not a single C-64 to be found in Lafayette. ------ > From: jimm@amiga.UUCP > Regarding the Colonel Video story, no Amiga dealer is unable to get > product unless they are not credit worthy. I doubt that CBM executives know what their regional dealer reps are doing. One Monday, this dealer was in Arkansas buying Amigas on the grey market, cash, to sell to a supercomputer company. Hardly "not credit worthy". Also interesting: Rumor says Cray Research in Houston claims they can't get enough hardware information out of CBM to build an interface they're working on. As far as Federated, that MIGHT work out. But I've seen too many such places that have no technician, the girl in the camera department sells the computers, and they ship their broken computers to Alaska to get them fixed (Colonel Video in Houston ships theirs to Oklahoma, New Generation here ships their Sanyos and Ataris to Baton Rouge, etc.). > From: dillon@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP > Amiga, DO NOT REPLACE KICKSTART WITH ROMS!. I think they'll have to, to be more price-competitive with Atari. Sigh. --- Re: claims that cuts at Los Gatos will hurt development: People who leave C-A just because their boss got laid off are doing a great disservice to the Amiga and to us. Times are tough. --- > ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura > OK Turkey, What you got against Des Moines, Iowa! :-) Maybe I should have said "Peoria". Aw shucks... layts go wach HEE-HAW! -- Computing from the Bayous, Eric Green akgua!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10 (Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509) Note: send mail to usl-pc!jpdres10@usl.UUCP or full path.