rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (06/08/86)
References: [ May this line give you indigestion: !@#$%^&*()#@$%^&*$^&^^&%&(*&*( ] Whether it be through EPROM, EEPROM, or just a more integrated disk format, I think that it is very important to get rid of the necessity for a separate Kickstart disk. After having swapped disks constantly on the Mac for many moons, it's frustrating to do so on the Amiga (an otherwise superior machine) every time I reboot! Having to have a Kickstart disk in the main drive prevents me from running a BBS without an expensive UPS (since a power glitch will cause the system to wait for the Kickstart disk again). It also diminishes the utility of a hard drive -- which, I'd hoped, would obviate the need to handle floppies at all. Seems to me that, as the Amiga is cost-reduced, the boot ROMs could be replaced with something that either 1) looked for a hard disk, or 2) could accept the Kickstart code off of a Workbench disk. If this is too radical, it could AT LEAST look for the Workbench disk in an external drive, so that I could leave Kickstart in the main drive and be able to reboot after a power failure! For a machine this sophisticated not to be able to boot without shuffling of floppies is a travesty. How about it, Neil? <rogue>
kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) (06/10/86)
In article <1241@well.UUCP> rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) writes: > > [ May this line give you indigestion: !@#$%^&*()#@$%^&*$^&^^&%&(*&*( ] >Whether it be through EPROM, EEPROM, or just a more integrated disk format, >I think that it is very important to get rid of the necessity for a separate >Kickstart disk. >For a machine this sophisticated not to be able to boot without shuffling >of floppies is a travesty. How about it, Neil? Let it be known that I cast my vote for KEEPING the Kickstart to WCS concept. This provides for a LOT of useful features that are not possible (or at least convenient) otherwise. I thought that I had heard that 1.2 provides the ability to combine a Kickstart and Workbench disk so that complaints like the above are answered. If 1.2 beta2 has this feature tho, I've seen no reference so haven't the faintest idea how to accomplish this. Still, I have a feeling that some of the Los Gatos Gurus between meditations, are working on a few examples of features that utilize the Kickstart to WCS abilities. Utilities to cut and paste WCS resident libraries, fonts, etc. would allow one to customize a Kickstart/Workbench disk for various special applications. An OS-9 or GEM or MacFinder Kickstart disk(s) would be great too. I've considered putting a Forth OS on a Kickstart. Be nice to have a hard disk driver there so when my developing program crashes, I don't have to boot as much off of disk to recover, but I don't know what kind of hard disk I might have, or whether I will have a optical disk driver, etc. hooked up someday. The way things are now, I only have to boot kickstart once when I power up, which I don't find at all objectionable. Once kickstart/workbench combination disks have been implemented, the only objection I can see to this technique is completely eliminated. BTW, anyone figure out what it takes to modify the default 'topaz' fonts yet? Keith Doyle
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (06/10/86)
In article <1247@well.UUCP> kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) writes: >I thought that I had heard that 1.2 provides the ability to combine a > Kickstart and Workbench disk.... Wish 'twere so, Keith, but I have heard of no such plans from Los Gatos. And, what with the reduced staff and the need to fix the remaining bugs in 1.2, I doubt that it will be part of this release. > Utilities to cut and paste WCS resident >libraries, fonts, etc. would allow one to customize a Kickstart/Workbench >disk for various special applications. An OS-9 or GEM or MacFinder >Kickstart disk(s) would be great too. I've considered putting a >Forth OS on a Kickstart. Be nice to have a hard disk driver there so >when my developing program crashes, I don't have to boot as much off of >disk to recover, but I don't know what kind of hard disk I might have, or >whether I will have a optical disk driver, etc. hooked up someday. Such things might indeed be nice to have, and none of them should be precluded by a well-conceived one-step boot process. >The way things are now, I only have to boot kickstart >once when I power up, which I don't find at all objectionable. Once >kickstart/workbench combination disks have been implemented, the only >objection I can see to this technique is completely eliminated. The only problem that would remain in such a case would be that you'd have to put the "bootable" disk back in the drive to restart the machine. (And, since Kickstart takes up an imposing 256K, and a fairly complete workbench would take up all of the rest, that disk wouldn't be useful for much else.) Thus, you would have to either have an external drive or swap disks often to get at the workbench and CLI utilities. My IBM PC, with technology a decade older than the Amiga's, boots cheerfully from its hard disk with no muss, fuss, or bother. If the hard disk fails, or if I want to run a different OS, I can do so simply by putting a boot disk in the floppy drive when the system resets. And, miracle of miracles, it does this WITHOUT PUTTING THE OS IN ROM! (The IBM ROM routines might just as easily have been implemented in RAM, and would probably be done that way now if they did not complicate the process of clone-making.) I would expect at least as much from my Amiga. <rogue>
haddock@ti-csl (06/10/86)
>Seems to me that, as the Amiga is cost-reduced, the boot ROMs could >be replaced with something that either 1) looked for a hard disk, or >2) could accept the Kickstart code off of a Workbench disk. If this >is too radical, it could AT LEAST look for the Workbench disk in an >external drive, so that I could leave Kickstart in the main drive >and be able to reboot after a power failure! I SECOND {AND THIRD, FOURTH, AND FIFTH} IT!!!! At try looking for Workbench on the second or third drives. -Rusty- ================================================================ *hardcopy* *electr{onic, ic}* Rusty Haddock ARPA: Haddock%TI-CSL@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA POB 226015 M/S 238 CSNET: Haddock@TI-CSL Texas Instruments Inc. USENET: {ut-sally,convex!smu,texsun}!ti-csl!haddock Dallas, Texas 75266 VOICE: (214) 995-0330
hull@hao.UUCP (Howard Hull) (06/10/86)
> Let it be known that I cast my vote for KEEPING the Kickstart to WCS > concept. This provides for a LOT of useful features that are not possible > (or at least convenient) otherwise. ... Is it possible to simply provide SOCKETS for the ROM (where the Kickstart RAM now plugs in?) and then sell the machine with the ROMs and offer the Kickstart RAM as an accessory that plugs into the ROM socket? At least that way a developer can have either environment with only the inconvenience of having to swap the parts; or better yet, provide sockets on the piggy-back Kickstart RAM for the ROM chips, and have a board mounted slide switch to select what is wanted - ROM or Kickstart RAM WCS. The Byte article from last year just shows the ROM pads (no sockets). Somewhere else I thought I saw a picture that showed the Kickstart RAM, a PC board that covers over the ROM sockets, but I can't now remember where... Howard Hull [If yet unproven concepts are outlawed in the range of discussion... ...Then only the deranged will discuss yet unproven concepts] {ucbvax!hplabs | decvax!noao | mcvax!seismo | ihnp4!seismo} !hao!hull
mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (06/11/86)
In reference to putting Kickstart and Workbench on one disk and the debate over putting Kickstart in ROM: First of all, putting Kickstart on the Workbench disk would wipe out 256K of space, besides being highly kludgy. The Kickstart and DOS formats are very different, and a partitioned disk would basically ONLY be useful to someone trying to put up a BBS. The inconvenience of load Kickstart once at power-up is minimal for most users, and it is virtually impossible to kill Kickstart without turning the power off (I haven't done it yet, and I am a *developer*.) Definitely keep the WCS!!!! The cost for future updates and major overhauls will be MUCHO reduced; for example, you might want to retrofit old Amigas with new Kickstarts to handle some new software feature or operating system you might introduct on a newer Amiga; having Kickstart in WCS also greatly increases the incentive for improving system performance in future. In the short term C-A may not be intending to update ROM, but the future can never tell. Two years from now some whiz-bang idea might really be helped by minor changes to Kickstart; you never know. KEEP KICKSTART IN WCS!!! It's a good investment. (Besides, there's always one more bug fix.) In any case, there is no minicomputer in the world with an operating system burned into ROM. They all boot from hard disk, or tape backup, and for good reason. The Amiga is in the class of computer where having the operating system on disk is almost a necessity. One feature I would DEFINITELY like: booting Kickstart from hard disk!!! If this is possible at all, it should be implemented. 256K off a floppy is significant, but off a hard disk its paltry. -Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP)
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (06/11/86)
In article <1253@well.UUCP> mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) writes: > One feature I would DEFINITELY like: booting Kickstart >from hard disk!!! If this is possible at all, it should be implemented. >256K off a floppy is significant, but off a hard disk its paltry. > -Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP) Agree 100%. Again, to have to shuffle floppies when one has a hard disk is absurd. Such changes would, of course, require that the boot ROMs do the AutoConfig, rather than the Kickstart code. Doesn't seem to me that it would be hard to create a downward-compatible ROM that does this.... <rogue>
farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) (06/11/86)
My two cents worth in the great "ROM or PROM or EEPROM or RAM" debate:
keep the WCS like it is, but add an external connector (mini-phone jack
or something like that) for battery back-up for the WCS RAM. That way,
you can, if you want to spend the bucks, get as good as ROM without ROM's
inherent problems...
-----------
Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren
{hplabs, dual, lll-crg}!well!farrenmykes@3comvax.UUCP (06/11/86)
From reading all this discussion, I am beginning to think that I do not understand something correctly. My understanding is that the Rom Kernel is not the OS. It is the equivalent to the ROM Bios in the IBM PC type of dinosaurs. It is also my understanding that the OS is on the workbench disk, where it always will be ROM or no ROM. It is also my understanding that even if the Kickstart were placed in ROM that it does not prevent future modifications to these routines. They are all vectored in a clean way so that upgrading it would require only enough RAM to hold the new routines once loaded from disk. So what's the hassle? Even if you upgrade half the kernel, it would still be twice as fast as kickstarting from diskette all the time now. I am sure that someone will correct me out there. Rom kernel consists of: Exec, Graphics, Layers, and some devices. The OS consists of AmigaDos, and its related stuff. After all, what is installed by the INSTALL program?
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (06/12/86)
In article <858@hoptoad.uucp> farren@hoptoad.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes: > > My two cents worth in the great "ROM or PROM or EEPROM or RAM" debate: >keep the WCS like it is, but add an external connector (mini-phone jack >or something like that) for battery back-up for the WCS RAM. That way, >you can, if you want to spend the bucks, get as good as ROM without ROM's >inherent problems... > >Mike Farren hoptoad!farren, {hplabs, dual, lll-crg}!well!farren Still a cost problem. The WCS piggyback boards uses dynamic rams (ie DRAM) that require regular refresh signals and use too much power for battery backup. Static RAM's (or CHMOS DRAMS) would cost more than the existing arrangement. It would make an interesting third-party option, but volume would be pretty low. -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
morrison@gitpyr.UUCP (BILL MORRISON) (06/12/86)
(* line eater fodder *)
I need some information concerning the adaption of PC code to the
amiga. First of all, I know next to nothing about Sidecar (?). What I
need to know is how it works and general information about it. For
instance, if I do a copy of a file from the PC disk to the amiga disk,
what actually happens? Also, does it support more than one disk
simultaneously? All I need some specs on it. I realize it is vapor
hardware, but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Billsgt@alice.UucP (Steve Tell) (06/13/86)
>>Is it possible to simply provide SOCKETS for the ROM (where the Kickstart >>RAM now plugs in?) and then sell the machine with the ROMs and offer the >>Kickstart RAM as an accessory that plugs into the ROM socket? At least >>that way a developer can have either environment with only the inconvenience >>of having to swap the parts; or better yet, provide sockets on the piggy-back >>Kickstart RAM for the ROM chips.... If the folks at C-A feel that there would be too small a marked to justify offering the option, *Please* at least give us sockets for the roms, and the details on how to make a WCS board. That way, if a need arises, someone will make them. I want to see C-A do as well as they can with the machine, but please close the door on the possiblilty of other operating systems in wcs. Steve Tell AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ (... is not responsible for any of these opinions) -- Steve Tell AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ (... is not responsible for any of these opinions)
pariseau@well.UUCP (Robert S. Pariseau) (06/13/86)
mike -- Deep Sigh.... The contents of the Kickstart Disk (i.e., the software which is loaded into the WCS memory) consists of what most people consider "kernel software" plus additional system software which would have taken up too much RAM in a 256K machine to safely be loaded into RAM from the Workbench disk. (We had made promises to software developers regarding how much RAM they could depend upon having available in a 256K machine after the DOS was running...) Thus the Kickstart software includes not only the EXEC Multitasking Kernel, but also the AmigaDOS Filesystem. Although this might not be considered ideal, it DOES leave the maximum possible amount of application RAM available for program use and there ARE protocols built into the system to allow people to boot "foreign" DOS'es on the hardware. System software on the Amiga is broken into "libraries", which are collections of related routines accessed through a well-defined calling sequence. The design specs for the Amiga include the ability to dynamically replace the "library vector" in RAM such that references to the given library will automagically use new code, loaded into RAM, rather than the original code in the WCS. Unfortunately, this doesn't work under V1.1. Fortunately, this DOES work under V1.2. Thus the comment that even if the Kickstart stuff is committed to ROM, it will be possible to distribute firmware upgrades as, perhaps, small files on the Workbench disk. -------- I should also point out that it is highly unlikely that Commodore will abandon its existing, Kickstart based, Amiga owners. That is, any software which gets built into ROMs in new Amigas will almost certainly be offered to existing owners as new Kickstart software. Thus, if you are a fan of Kickstart, just make sure that you buy a Kickstart based Amiga!