james@uw-atm.UUCP (06/03/86)
There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). I would like to suggest a different solution: EEPROMs (Electrically Erasable, Programmable Read Only Memory). These would have the advantage of high speed start (no more waiting for those blasted KickStart disks to be read), along with the flexibility to make updates. If C-A had a new release, they would ship a disk which contained a program which changed the EEPROMs. To protect against accident change (or worms in posted code), there could be an electrically resetable switch on the back of the machine which enabled erasing and writing of the EEPROM. After you started the updating program, you would be prompted to press the button, and when the program was done, it would reset the switch. I am not sure of the cost of such system, and clearly it wouldn't do me much good with my current machine, but on future machines it could be quite an improvement. If you have any thoughts or improvements, lets hear from you. -- James M Synge UUCP: uw-beaver!uw-june!james
brianr@tekig4.UUCP (Brian Rhodefer) (06/05/86)
In all this Kickstart in ROM vs in RAM debate, I recall someone saying that even if Kickstart is put in ROM, it will occupy space in the "chip" memory. Is this true? If so, why couldn't the "Kickstart" code be located outside of the 512K "chip" space, to allow a full 512K of usable RAM in the base Amiga (with 256K add-on, of course)? Are the coprocessors expected to execute directly out of Kickstart codespace or something? Yours in memory-lust, Brian Rhodefer
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (06/05/86)
In article <18@uw-atm.UUCP> james@uw-atm.UUCP (James M Synge) writes: [...] > I would like to suggest a different solution: EEPROMs (Electrically >Erasable, Programmable Read Only Memory). These would have the advantage of >high speed start (no more waiting for those blasted KickStart disks to be >read), along with the flexibility to make updates. > > I am not sure of the cost of such system, and clearly it wouldn't do me much >good with my current machine, but on future machines it could be quite an >improvement. >-- James M Synge UUCP: uw-beaver!uw-june!james In concept the is a great idea, however these devices have not reached a point where this would be practical. In fact, it might cost more than the current RAM/kickstart arrangement. Understand that the entire kickstart image could be stored in one relatively cheap ROM, or a pair more expensive EPROMs, while you would need maybe 16 or 32 expensive EEPROMS to do the trick. Maybe in a few years, but not yet... -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
rj@amiga.UUCP (Robert J. Mical) (06/05/86)
In article <18@uw-atm.UUCP> james@uw-atm.UUCP (James M Synge) writes: > > There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the >current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). > >-- James M Synge UUCP: uw-beaver!uw-june!james As a point of interest, even if Commodore ends up putting the ROM Kernel system code in ROM, you will still be able to put a Kickstart disk in the internal drive and have that code be loaded as the system code. This allows further releases (as well as custom releases) of the Kickstart even after the Amiga goes to ROM. Presumably, this will work with machines that have more than 512K of RAM, since that 256K of Kickstart has to fit in somewhere. I understand that the Kickstart code was once upon a time successfully loaded into the special RAM cache of the 68020 board that's seen glory days in the Amiga. Now *that* is cool. RJ >:-{)* ============================================================================= =RJ Mical= Suite 123 999C Edgewater Blvd. Foster City, CA 94404 (415) 573-0497 ============================================================================
daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (06/05/86)
> Keywords: KickStart ROM > > > There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the > current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). > > I would like to suggest a different solution: EEPROMs (Electrically > Erasable, Programmable Read Only Memory). These would have the advantage of > high speed start (no more waiting for those blasted KickStart disks to be > read), along with the flexibility to make updates. ... > > > -- James M Synge UUCP: uw-beaver!uw-june!james Sure sounds like a nice idea. Only problem is that EEPROMs these days are several times more expensive than Static RAM, which is more expensive than Dynamic RAM, which is more expensive than ROM, etc. -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Dave Haynie {caip,inhp4,allegra,seismo}!cbmvax!daveh "I read dozens of books, 'bout heros and crooks, and I learned much, of both of their style.." -Jimmy Buffet These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be yours too. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (06/05/86)
In article <18@uw-atm.UUCP> james@uw-atm.UUCP (James M Synge) writes: > > There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the >current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). > > I would like to suggest a different solution: EEPROMs (Electrically >Erasable, Programmable Read Only Memory). These would have the advantage of >high speed start (no more waiting for those blasted KickStart disks to be >read), along with the flexibility to make updates. > > If C-A had a new release, they would ship a disk which contained a program >which changed the EEPROMs. To protect against accident change (or worms in >posted code), there could be an electrically resetable switch on the back of >the machine which enabled erasing and writing of the EEPROM. After you >started the updating program, you would be prompted to press the button, and >when the program was done, it would reset the switch. > I think the idea of going to ROMS would be to *decrease* costs. Maybe software should be put on little rom cartridges .. :-)
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (06/06/86)
+++++ Hi, Does anybody out there think that it might be practical or even possible to put something other than Intuition in the kernel store-- perhaps a Unix kernel? I like Intuition well enough, but it might be useful to run Unix software out practicality. The model for such an undertaking would seem to be the HP Unix-based portable computer. It would be interesting to know how definitely write-once to kernel memory is. For instance, is there a flip-flop which turns off the write-enable until a hard power-up? That could be both an advantage and disadvantage. It would help protect the sanity of the (Unix) kernel is the MMU-less environment of the Amiga. I've heard that Unix ports have been accomplished on MMU-less 68K based machines, but have not seen such a system. It seems like it would have a fair chance of flying, as long as one doesn't try to overextend the Amiga by having multi-user (at the same time) ambitions. [ By the way, thanks to everybody that sent mail regarding my query on the 900. Sorry about consuming net time with what appears to have been a very limited prototype machine. Interesting that about 50% of the people that saw the 900 loved while the other half hated it. I don't think anyone had an indifferent opinion!] Bill Norheastern Ohio Univ.s' College of Med. ...!allegra!neoucom!wtm (216) 325-2511 ext. 323
haddock@ti-csl (06/08/86)
/* ---------- "KickStart disks vs. ROM kernel" ---------- */ > I would like to suggest a different solution: EEPROMs >(Electrically Erasable, Programmable Read Only Memory). >These would have the advantage of high speed start >(no more waiting for those blasted KickStart disks >to be read), along with the flexibility to make updates. >James M Synge UUCP: uw-beaver!uw-june!james Clearly a GREAT idea James, 'cept that EEPROMs are a s__tload more expensive than the current RAM chips and much more so over mass-produced ROMs. Commodore wants to go with the ROM 'cause they're much cheaper to put into the Amiga. -Rusty- ================================================================ *hardcopy* *electr{onic, ic}* Rusty Haddock ARPA: Haddock%TI-CSL@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA POB 226015 M/S 238 CSNET: Haddock@TI-CSL Texas Instruments Inc. USENET: {ut-sally,convex!smu,texsun}!ti-csl!haddock Dallas, Texas 75266 VOICE: (214) 995-0330
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) (06/13/86)
>In article <18@uw-atm.UUCP> james@uw-atm.UUCP (James M Synge) writes: > There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the >current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). > How about having KickStart in ROM standard, but with an (hopefully not TOO expensive) option for us hacker types to replace that ROM with RAM and use a KickStart disk? I don't like the idea of "burned-in" operating systems, like the Mac's; there are BOUND to be bugs, and there is no way to fix them. Also, it precludes "customization" of the operating system by people like me (things like changing default options, and stuff like that). On the other hand, with non-"burned" operating systems, if you're not careful, you can get into a situation where you have 99 different revisions of the OS floating around, and everyone is limited to using the "least common denominator" system. It's definitely something to consider and discuss. Brent -- Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman TANSTAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!)
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) (06/13/86)
In article <604@ucbcad.BERKELEY.EDU> chapman@pavepaws.UUCP (Brent Chapman) writes: >>In article <18@uw-atm.UUCP> james@uw-atm.UUCP (James M Synge) writes: >> There has been some debate about whether the kernel should remain on the >>current KickStart disk, or be placed in ROM (as the name ROM Kernel implies). >> > >How about having KickStart in ROM standard, but with an (hopefully not >TOO expensive) option for us hacker types to replace that ROM with RAM >and use a KickStart disk? > >Brent > Oops! OK, next time I'll read all 279 backlogged articles before I start posting followups, to keep from suggesting something that's already been mentioned. Sorry about that. Brent -- Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman TANSTAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!)
kurt@fluke.UUCP (Kurt Guntheroth) (06/13/86)
Could a kernal ROM or else a WCS RAM be plugged into the expansion port? One or the other configuration would be shipped (probably ROM on board) and the other would be available as an option. (The WCS RAM would disable and replace the ROM.) This would be classic.