[net.micro.amiga] Copy protect methods & paranoia

hull@hao.UUCP (Howard Hull) (07/28/86)

In article <236@neoucom.UUCP>, wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes:
> 
> Now the bad part is that the algorithm that E-A uses is real slow
> and rather unreliable.  I've been though several copies of both
> programs.  It seems like the disks break after 20 to 30 boots of
> the programs.
> 
> It looks like they decode some part of the program and switch its
> physical location on the disk every time the protected program is
> run.  It also looks like the funky blocks are not noted in the file
> system as used blocks which makes them vulnerable for trashing by
> legitimate writes to the disk.

So you propose a scheme that wants to write on a write protected disk.
Of course if it can't, it won't make any difference, since the disk will
be the same as before.  If that's true, why even try unless the object
is related to something you expect the writers to be doing that you don't
want them to do.  In that case, I'd like to hear what you think that is.
All of my EA disks have been write protected since the day I got them,
and I have not yet had a failure to boot.  I am not tempted to write on
them (With respect to Preferences, 'Ve haf ozer vays'.)
***PaRaNoIa On***
However, I ^have^ wondered when some Micro maker was going to get around
to rigging things so that there was a secret way his "in" SDC's could
write to a physically write protected disk.  This could be used to - zap
a disk which had been specified as both copy protected and required in
print to be "configured to read only" [Read: to prevent tampering] "in
order that the software may function" - in the event that it had been, er,
^violated^.  This might be done by a software packager that uses the
"lazer burned pit pattern" method of copy protection, for instance, or
by one of those outfits that offers packages that ensure that nobody can
read your developmental software while you are away from your machine.
Now then, since the Amiga does not have a "legitimate floppy disk controller"
as such, one wonders just how soft the system is...  If the write protect
tab opens a switch in series with the write-head drive current, that'd be
good enough for me.  If the tab only goes to a switch that is wired to an
XOR gate, that's another matter entirely...
***PaRaNoIa Off*** (I hope).
								Howard Hull
[If yet unproven concepts are outlawed in the range of discussion...
                   ...Then only the deranged will discuss yet unproven concepts]
	{ucbvax!hplabs | decvax!noao | mcvax!seismo | ihnp4!seismo} !hao!hull

rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) (07/28/86)

> In article <236@neoucom.UUCP>, wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes:
>
> So you propose a scheme that wants to write on a write protected disk.
>
> ***PaRaNoIa On***
> However, I ^have^ wondered when some Micro maker was going to get around
> to rigging things so that there was a secret way his "in" SDC's could
> write to a physically write protected disk.  This could be used to - zap
>
> as such, one wonders just how soft the system is...  If the write protect
> tab opens a switch in series with the write-head drive current, that'd be
> good enough for me.  If the tab only goes to a switch that is wired to an
> XOR gate, that's another matter entirely...
> ***PaRaNoIa Off*** (I hope).

Well, I hope this doesn't start a wave of paranoia out there, but I believe
that YOU CAN WRITE TO A PROTECTED DISK UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.  Some time
back I was fooling around with Disked....And it weems to me that it gave me 
the choice of toggling the write protect on and off from the keyboard, 
irrespective of the "sense" of the tab on the diskette.  Obviously if this
program can do it, so can others, particularly in the case where the
software takes over the whole machine (as in EA and other game type software)
or runs under some sort of "modified workbench".  As of late, I have not had
the chance to get out the EA disks and put any time into playing with them to
find out if they do make "unauthorized" writes to the disk, but judging by
the rate of failure of these things, particularly in the early releases, I
would suspect this is the case.  (I ran with an out-of-spec internal drive for
awhile, and you wouldn't believe how long it took sometimes to boot Archon!
I also had to get it replaced several times in the first month or so it was
out....which I still suspect was due to it getting "self-modified".  It all
might have just been a fluke, but 'ya never know..........sigh)

-- 
--Rick Frazier--  DISCLAIMER: The above is individual opinion (the result of my
imperfect recall of facts, real or imagined) in no way representing anyone else.
UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!mips!rick         DDD: 408-720-1700 x278 

aaron@uwmacc.UUCP (Aaron Avery) (07/31/86)

In article <584@mips.UUCP> rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) writes:
>
>Well, I hope this doesn't start a wave of paranoia out there, but I believe
>that YOU CAN WRITE TO A PROTECTED DISK UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.  Some time
>back I was fooling around with Disked....And it weems to me that it gave me 
>the choice of toggling the write protect on and off from the keyboard, 
>irrespective of the "sense" of the tab on the diskette.  Obviously if this

The "write protect" in DiskEd is merely a software write protect so that you
don't accidentally write to the disk, but you can still have the disk 
unprotected hardware wise. I don't beleive you can ever write to a protected
disk, but I have had the Amiga mess up a protected source disk during a 
DiskCopy.

Aaron Avery ({seismo,topaz,caip,allegra,ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmacc!aaron)
            (aaron%maccunix@rsch.wisc.edu)
            (aaron@unix.macc.wisc.edu)

vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (08/01/86)

In article <100@uwmacc.UUCP> aaron@uwmacc.UUCP (Aaron Avery) writes:
>In article <584@mips.UUCP> rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) writes:
>>
>unprotected hardware wise. I don't beleive you can ever write to a protected
>disk, but I have had the Amiga mess up a protected source disk during a 
>DiskCopy.

Then either the Amiga wrote to your protected source disk, or
the disk drive physically damaged your diskette.  I take it
you mean the latter.
-- 

mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (08/01/86)

EA does NOT, I repeat does NOT, write to write protected disks!!!!!!!!!
None of my EA disks have failed, not one, and I am running with normal
Amiga internal and external drives.  I keep all my EA disks write protected
at all times.				-Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP)

rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) (08/02/86)

> 
> EA does NOT, I repeat does NOT, write to write protected disks!!!!!!!!!
> None of my EA disks have failed, not one, and I am running with normal
> Amiga internal and external drives.  I keep all my EA disks write protected
> at all times.				-Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP)

PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS.....PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS....PAGING.....HEY EA 
are you out there?........come on, settle this little discussion once and
for all........Do you really write to disks when they are "protected?"
- - - - - - - -
Until someone from EA answers the question of whether they do, I would like
to point out that there appears to be no HARDWARE reason they couldn't.
(the drives do not appear to interrupt the write current to the heads)
In the Amiga hardware manual, there is a description of the pinout of the
internal and external connectors to the disk drives.  In each case there
is a signal called WPRO*, which in the port signal assignments for the
8520 that "talks" on these connectors is labeled "write protect."  This,
and the fact that I have had experience with MANY other disk controllers
and drives that use the "write protect" as an "advisory" signal to the
controller that the user DESIRES the unit write protected, leads me to
believe that they can (and personally, I would guess they DO) write to
a "write protected" disk whenever they want.  It's not too difficult to
imagine that they have a modified trackdisk driver that allows this, as
they DO have a modified (or replacement for) the workbench that assures
they run in the single-tasking mode by taking over the machine.  Just for
grins sometime, start up a game from the external drive, then remove
it at some point.  It'll pop up a requestor that indicates you should
re-insert the game disk. (At least the Marble Madness disk I have does this)
The only way out is to reboot the system. The game disk takes over the
existing workbench and transfers control exclusively to itself, keeping
you & me from doing anything else (and, of course the bad pirates from
robbing them :-)  ).  Tricky, huh?  
If I can get a few extra minutes, I'll hook up the trusty oscope to the
drive and see if they move the read/write line to assert write while
they are "reading" the disk.  Then I'd know for sure.........
-- 
--Rick Frazier--  DISCLAIMER: The above is individual opinion (the result of my
imperfect recall of facts, real or imagined) in no way representing anyone else.
UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!mips!rick         DDD: 408-720-1700 x278 

wagner@utcs.UUCP (08/03/86)

In response to an earlier comment: DISKED can not write to a disk with the
write tab set to protect (at least, my copy can't).
There is an additional level of software protection that you can flip on
and off with a command, so that you don't write out a sector on an
unprotected disk at the wrong time.  At least on my system, if you try
to write with DISKED when the disk is protected by the tab, it crashes!

tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) (08/04/86)

In article <598@mips.UUCP> rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) writes:
>PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS.....PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS....PAGING.....HEY EA 
>are you out there?........come on, settle this little discussion once and
>for all........Do you really write to disks when they are "protected?"
Having spoken to the person at EA that would know, and the fact that
this whole topic came up a few months ago:

    E A    D O E S    N O T    W R I T E 
    A S    P A R T    O F    C O P Y    P R O T E C T I O N

>... Just for
>grins sometime, start up a game from the external drive, then remove
>it at some point.  It'll pop up a requestor that indicates you should
>re-insert the game disk. (At least the Marble Madness disk I have does this)
>The only way out is to reboot the system. The game disk takes over the
>existing workbench and transfers control exclusively to itself, keeping
>you & me from doing anything else (and, of course the bad pirates from
>robbing them :-)  ).  Tricky, huh?  
This requestor coming up is a bug in AmigaDOS 1.1.  It seems that under
some circumstances, if you have opened a file and eject the disk,
the DOS itself says "give it back".  As to taking over the whole machine,
you're right!  Many games simply need to.



-- Glenn Tenney 
UUCP: {hplabs,glacier,lll-crg,ihnp4!ptsfa}!well!tenney
ARPA: well!tenney@LLL-CRG.ARPA        Delphi and MCI Mail: TENNEY
As Alphonso Bodoya would say... (tnx boulton)
Disclaimers? DISCLAIMERS!? I don' gotta show you no stinking DISCLAIMERS!

mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (08/04/86)

	I work for EA as a contractor (not an employee), and I am
positive that they would not do something so horrible as write to a
write-protected disk.  If you want absolute certainty, I will call them
on Monday and ask Greg Riker directly.  He will say, "No, we don't,
of course not, you fool."  But I will call just to set everyone's
mind at ease.  (BTW, EA does not have a Unix machine, so they don't
have a USENET node.)			-Mitsu

mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (08/04/86)

In article <1571@well.UUCP> tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) writes:
>In article <598@mips.UUCP> rick@mips.UUCP (Rick Frazier) writes:
>>PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS.....PAGING ELECTRONIC ARTS....PAGING.....HEY EA 
>>are you out there?........come on, settle this little discussion once and
>>for all........Do you really write to disks when they are "protected?"
>Having spoken to the person at EA that would know, and the fact that
>this whole topic came up a few months ago:
>
>    E A    D O E S    N O T    W R I T E 
>    A S    P A R T    O F    C O P Y    P R O T E C T I O N
>
I lost two copies of Arctic Fox (before I got a refund).  I am sure that
I lost one of them when I turned off my amiga when it was showing me the
score page (there was no disk activity, and the screen was static for
quite a while).  The first copy of the program died after 1 day.  The
second died after about 2 weeks (I only played it a few times though).
I believe that EA does not write as part of copy protection, but I do
believe that if their disks are written to (by their programs...) to
store any kind of data that the copy protection will fail.  This is just
a hunch.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  If a company really takes
customer satisfaction as its number one priority, then it won't copy protect
software.  Copy protection burns only those who pay for the software
(like me) and NOT PIRATES.  Pirates get the software for free anyway, and
they actually get their jollies from beating the protection schemes.  I pay,
do not get my jollies that way, and get burned.  They don't pay and get
free software (as many copies as they want or need).  Wise up.  Grow up.
I don't care how good a piece of software is, I won't buy it if it is
copy protected.  EA won't make a dime off me for any of their games.
Copy protection drives paying customers away.

This is the beginning of REAL power in micros.  Why cold start your
computer just to play a game?  Why use floppies if you have hundreds of
megabytes of hard disk on line (the Amiga is the machine to handle it)?
Why even terminate the program if you have enough RAM to run everything
all the time?

cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (08/05/86)

Mike Schwartz writes :
> I lost two copies of Arctic Fox (before I got a refund).  I am sure that
> I lost one of them when I turned off my amiga when it was showing me the
		            ^^^^^^^^^^
> score page (there was no disk activity, and the screen was static for
> quite a while).  The first copy of the program died after 1 day.  The
> second died after about 2 weeks (I only played it a few times though).
> I believe that EA does not write as part of copy protection, but I do
> believe that if their disks are written to (by their programs...) to
> store any kind of data that the copy protection will fail.  This is just
> a hunch.
> 

Mike and to anyone else out there who isn't aware of a rather peculiar
trait of floppies. If there is a disk in the drive when it is powered
of there is a better than 50% chance that the *drive* will write 
garbage on the disk. This is because during that time when the power
levels are sinking down to 0 (no it is not instantaenous) the logic
enters an undefined state (more like the linear region) and often
times can send current through the write head of the floppy. So anyone
who uses floppies always either lift the heads (by opening the door on
5.25" one or *eject* the disk before powering off. It will prevent a
lot of problems. 

--Chuck McManis

vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (08/06/86)

In article <585@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>
>I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  If a company really takes
>customer satisfaction as its number one priority, then it won't copy protect
>software.  Copy protection burns only those who pay for the software
>(like me) and NOT PIRATES.  Pirates get the software for free anyway, and

I really like the Maxi people's solution: they put your
name, credit card number, and/or telephone number in your
program.  Anyone who has a copy can see who the registered
owner is and can (mis)use his credit card number.  I certainly
wouldn't want *my* credit card number getting out.  Such programs
can be made to work as expected.  They can be copied, run from
ram: or hd0:, etc..  The buyer doesn't get burned.  And illegitimate
copying would be reduced to almost nil.

It would sure be nice if everyone would change to this new scheme
and give registered owners new copies for a very modest <$10 fee.
I even think the prices of many programs could come down with
this scheme.

I'm seriously thinking of NEVER, EVER, again buying copy protected
software.

Marnix

mwm@eris.berkeley.edu (08/07/86)

In article <257@pttesac.UUCP> vanam@pttesac.UUCP (-Root Admin-) writes:
>I'm seriously thinking of NEVER, EVER, again buying copy protected
>software.
>
>Marnix

I've already decided to NEVER, EVER again buy copy protected tools.
Games I can still be tempted by (but not much). This was brought on by
the problems with Dpaint.

I recommend this course to everybody. Not only do you avoid the
headaches of copy protected software, but you are hitting the
companies doing this where it hurts (in the sales figures :-).
Boycotts make an effective weapon. Might I suggest we use it against
copy protected software?

	<mike

wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (08/07/86)

	Ture, Maxicomm's solution of compiling your credit card
number and name into the source code would seems to be a solution.
It would certainly make one guard a disk as carefully as one's
credite card.  There is a little hitch in that, though.  Here at
the University we have Amigas, and we order things with nasty
purchase orders.  You can darn well bet that I'm not going to
sacrifice the integrity of my own credit card so that my Lab can
use a program that may be backed up.  (I suppose I could alwalys
fabricate a number for our purchasing dept. to give out, presuming
that the vendor wouldn't check.)  The same problem applies to our
accademic library that has to get programs for its patrons.

	By the way, my temporary solution has been for us to make
[legitimate] backups with Marauder that one of the guys here has.
Marauder has copied everything except one of the EA games that
someone brought in- no great loss there.  I use dpaint a lot, and
have already burned up a couple copies of my original-- now I'm
happy.  Now it won't bother me to send back my orignal copy, to get
the unboogered version from EA-- although I'm not sure if its worth
the 20 bucks!

		Bill

farmer@ico.UUCP (08/07/86)

I think EA has heard, and is responding.  I just got an order form for a
non copy protected delux paint from EA (for an aditional $10 since I had
already bought a 'backup copy').

Also I have played with marble madness, instant music, and delux video.  All
of these can be copied, but to be run, they prompt you to insert the
original disk.  The program verifies the 'serial number' off the original,
and asks you to reinsert the copy.

I like this approach.  Since my original is not in the drive much, and
doesn't get written to.  Also, I can copy the programs to ram, or a hard
disk.

DISCLAIMER:
I am not related to EA, but am a satisfied customer.

chiu@princeton.UUCP (Kenneth Chiu) (08/08/86)

In article <5841@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP writes:
>So anyone who uses floppies always either lift the heads or *eject* the disk
>before powering off. It will prevent a lot of problems. 
>--Chuck McManis

I seem to remember the IBM manual telling people to boot the system by putting
the disk in the drive and >then< powering up.  Is there something different
about powering up (as opposed to powering off), or does IBM use idiot-proof
circuitry?
-- 
Kenneth Chiu                                              UUCP: princeton!chiu
Princeton University Computer Science Department        BITNET: 6031801@PUCC

brent@orsvax1.UUCP (Brent Chivers) (08/08/86)

In article <18100003@ico> farmer@ico.UUCP writes:
>These can be copied, but to be run, they prompt you to insert the
>original disk.  The program verifies the 'serial number' off the
>original, and asks you to reinsert the copy.
>
>I like this approach.  Since my original is not in the drive much, and
>doesn't get written to.  Also, I can copy the programs to ram, or a hard
>disk.

I don't like this approach.  The two main reasons I hear for getting
a hard disk (and I intend to, when the prices look "reasonable") are
_s_p_a_c_e and _s_p_e_e_d.  But another major benefit will be _C_O_N_V_E_N_I_E_N_C_E, and
if I have to hunt for and insert a floppy to use some software, that
benefit has been shot down.  (How would you VAX users feel about walking
to your computer room to insert a disk every time you used your favorite
editor/compiler/spreadsheet/database/etc.?)  I would expect a hard disk
to _e_l_i_m_i_n_a_t_e my _d_i_s_k _h_a_n_d_l_i_n_g, except for installation, backup, and data-
distribution tasks.
-- 
--------------------
Brent Chivers		{allegra|ihnp4}!princeton!orsvax1!brent  or perhaps
ORS Automation, Inc	seismo!caip!topaz!pyrnj!orsvax1!brent
440 Wall St			Phone 609-924-1667
Princeton, NJ  08540		FAX   609-924-2413
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--------------------
Disclaimer:	Our business may be vision, but my views are my own.

"If there is any place on earth that needs light, it is certainly New York."

						Felix August Bartholdy

vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (08/09/86)

In article <246@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes:
>
>	Ture, Maxicomm's solution of compiling your credit card
>number and name into the source code would seems to be a solution.
>It would certainly make one guard a disk as carefully as one's
>credite card.  There is a little hitch in that, though.  Here at
>the University we have Amigas, and we order things with nasty
>purchase orders.  You can darn well bet that I'm not going to
>sacrifice the integrity of my own credit card so that my Lab can
>use a program that may be backed up.  (I suppose I could alwalys
...

It doesn't *have* to be a credit card number, although that
probably works best.  They can also put in there your school's
name, and the name and tel # of whoever is going to be responsible
for the program.  This doesn't mean that they can do anything
about it if that person lets the program get out, but it would
sure put a bad name on the school and that person and I suppose
the software company would never sell to that school/person
again.

It still seems like the best all around solution.

Marnix

jds@rayssd.UUCP (Jeffrey D. Struven) (08/14/86)

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***

jds@rayssd.UUCP (Jeffrey D. Struven) (08/14/86)

Sorry about that last message.  I had to get out of the editor real quick
and inadvertently saved that garbage file.  Regarding the copy protection
schemes:  It would be nice if these companies would not copy protect
their software but I don't it will ever happen.  The credit card
protection is a nice idea, but one can usually find a way to edit the
contents of a disk so as to render that protection useless.  One could
in effect replace all the pertinent data with asterisks.  Not too may
credit card numbers are *** *** *** ****.  What ever one guy can copy
protect the another guy can crack.  These protection schemes are getting
very elaborate and must cost big dollars in research.  The cost of the
final product could be that much cheaper if no protection was used.
Pirates will continue to crack software so why protect the disks?

				      Jeff

vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (08/18/86)

In article <74@rayssd.UUCP> jds@rayssd.UUCP (Jeffrey D. Struven) writes:
>
>their software but I don't it will ever happen.  The credit card
>protection is a nice idea, but one can usually find a way to edit the
>contents of a disk so as to render that protection useless.  One could
>in effect replace all the pertinent data with asterisks.  Not too many
>credit card numbers are *** *** *** ****.  What ever one guy can copy

I haven't tested this, but I'm 99% sure that they have
protected the credit card number so that if it is changed in
any way the program will not run.  They just get a checksum or
CRC of the data and have a routine that checks to see that it
hasn't changed.  They can scramble the code for this in such a
way that it is nearly impossible to find where the checksum is.

What they could also do (or just threaten to do) is to keep a
second copy of the data somewhere (scrambled of course).
Then if they get a hold of a copy of one of your disks which has
the original number not matching the hidden number, they could
sue you.  I don't know if such a suit would succeed, but
the existence of such a disk would sure make you look guilty.

By the way, it's not necessarily a credit card number.  It can be
just your name, address, and telephone number, or anything that
identifies you.

Marnix