kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) (08/04/86)
Keywords: [.............] Been seeing the ads for Digi-View by NewTek in Amigaworlds, and was wondering if anyone out there has seen one yet. In particular, how's the 640x400x4 B&W mode? (that's the only one that interests me much) Any problems? Noise? If you've seen the black and white hi-res shot of the toy robot tractor, (robotrac?) is this the type of quality one can expect? Or what does it take to get this kind of image? I'm assuming one is using a B&W video camera producing a stable image, not digitizing off a home vtr in freeze-frame, though I'd also like to know what you can expect if you try that too if it's even possible. Let's hear it from you golden-eyes out there. Thanx, Keith Doyle ihnp4!ptsfa!well!kdd
mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (08/04/86)
(I do not believe in the Digi-View is certainly real, and you can buy one, now. It is $199 for the basic unit, plus about $150 for a camera and maybe $60 or so for a high-quality copy stand. That's plenty cheap for a high-quality, high-resolution digitizer, which is what Digi-View is. Digi-View supports 320x200 32 colors, 320x200 HAM mode, and 640x400 B&W. With more memory, (512K more, I think) you can get 320x400 32 colors and HAM mode, and 640x400 16 colors. This is a VERY professionally-done product, and the software does a lot to help you get good, high-quality results. This HAM mode software (particularly the latest revision) is stunning; you can get color images which approach broadcast-quality video (the latest revision includes use of image-processing software that will remove the edge effects found in previous HAM mode images, giving you sharp, clear images which look about as good as a true 12-bit plane image (4,096 colors!!!)). The B&W high resolution is equally stunning; the software does dithering to achieve a "smooth" quality in the greyscale images. Digi-View works very well, and although there have been some minor bugs in early versions of the software, these have been fixed. Digi-View is a professional product that can be used in a professional video setting. (Future versions will do video special effects, and with expansion RAM, will do almost real-time video animation.) The only drawback is speed; it takes about 40 seconds to digitize a color image; the image is stored as a 21 bit plane image, which is then converted to be displayed on the Amiga based on adjustable parameters (color balance, contrast, brightness, et cetera.) A B&W image takes about 30 seconds (for high res), and 10 seconds for low res. -Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP) P.S. These are based on using the product at demonstrations. I do not own one.
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (08/05/86)
The dealer near me carries DigiView. If I remember correctly, he is asking about $200 for it. It is basically a ADC potted in a blob of plastic that you golp onto the printer port. The ADC is pretty slow, so you need to have a still picture so that the digitizer can grab it in multiple passes. A low-res picture takes aobut 15 seconds per color to grab. The camera comes with a "filter wheel" somewhat crudely fashioned from plexiglas (tm) squares of red-green-blue-clear. I don't think that the filter arrangement is real long on color accuracy. Using gelatin filters would have been better, but probably would not have stood up well in the rough and tumble world of the home game market. A hi-res picture is b&w only, and takes about 30 sec to digitize. The dealer had a cheap-o Panasonic survailance CCTV type camera hooked up to the thing. I wasn't all that taken with the quality of the picutres we were getting. It was really difficult to obtain non-Andy Warhol-looking colors (I'll bet you wondered why Amiga World chose him, now you know). In honesty, the dealer claimed that our difficulties were the fault of the camera not being too good.-- I'm not so sure. All in all, I suppose that given the price, that the product is reasonable. ---- If the A-squared Live! lives up to what is promised, it should be a nicer box. I was told that Live! would retail around $450 or so. I talked to A*A last December when they were planning to have Live! out by this March. They claimed that it would be able to do full color picutres at rates up to 15 f.p.s. Sounds like they're using some exotic stuff, and I imagine that its going to need to hang on the expansion buss to do DMA. Last December, he said that they'd consider selling a wire-wrap version for $1500, but he wasn't too crazy about the idea. He also mentioned that they were planning a "professional" version of Live!, but woundn't mention details. I think the hold-up is FCC approval. ---- The dealer near me claims that the Genlock from C-A should be out around Nov or DEC. He claimed that C-A told him that the Genlock was supposed to be out now, but had to go through a second round of FCC approval because of some last minute engineering changes. Apparently time base errors in chintzy-cheapo VCRs would drive it crazy. ---- I got suckered into buying the sound digitizer from "Applied Visions." Its going for about $150 around here-- probably too much, but then I paid $1800 for my Amiga last October! Not bad. Futuresound lets you digitize sounds from 124uS per sample and up. You can allocate as much memory (in chip memory) as you'd like, so you can get some pretty long sounds: 30 sec or more. Of course, that takes so much memory, that you can't do much other than play it back. The sounds you record can be stored in proprietary format (essentially just a string of the desired bytes) or the two IFF formats. IFF permits a one-shot or a 3-octave note-style form. We fed the IFF output into "Instant Music" without any problem. Note that the old Musicraft files are not IFF. I'm thinking about writing an IFF --> Musicraft convertor. Applied Visions were nice enough to include C examples, header files, library, etc for playing back sounds in your own programs. They also have AmigaBasic sources on the disk. The main thing lacking is a means to invoke the digitizer from one's own program. I wanted to do some FFTs with it, and I'd like to be able to do the whole mess in my own program. I think they left out the input side, to discourage cloning of their box, as the circuitry is pretty simple. Speaking of the box, it plugs into the printer port via a ribbon cable, and has a pass-through port so that the printer can remain attached. The box itself is ~ 20 * 60 * 80 cm. A cheap microphone is included, as well as a line-level RCA jack. There is a volume control. The digitizer control program that is included is a nice pice of workmanship. It allows four separate tracks of sound to be resident in memory. An oscilloscope like window permits the sound to be observed. The window can be time scaled to assist in picking out chunks of a track for editing or saving to disk. The software permits some clever manipulation of the sound: Reverse, Copy, Mix, Zero, Scale. A very useful feature is the bar graph that indicates sound level. It has an instantaneous level, peak indicator, and clipping warning. Boy- clipping really sounds bad! With 8 bits, there isn't any headroom, so level setting must be done with at leat a little finesse. So far, playing around with Futuresound has been pretty enjoyable, and the product seems to do what it advertises. ---- Well, I guess that this is quite long enough. I tried to stick mainly to facts. Bill Mayhew Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine Rootstown, Ohio 44272 USA wtm@neoucom
farmer@ico.UUCP (08/05/86)
> Digi-View is certainly real, and you can buy one, now. It
I looked at the Digi-View, liked it a lot, and bought it. I have played
with it quite a bit. I can make no complaints about it except that I can't
figure out how to reload a saved image into the high res. I have used
dpaint to look at it, and there is basicly no flicker.
Everything the previous poster said is true. I used my dads OLD B/W camera
which tended to try to compensate for the color filters, so I had to have
Digi-View recompensate the other direction.
For those who haven't seen it, it is a *small* box that hooks up to your
parallel port with a connection for a video in signal. I had good luck
digitizing the output of my vcr, but you can't get color without the
filters.daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (08/05/86)
> Keywords: > > Been seeing the ads for Digi-View by NewTek in Amigaworlds, and was > wondering if anyone out there has seen one yet. In particular, how's > the 640x400x4 B&W mode? (that's the only one that interests me much) > Any problems? Noise? If you've seen the black and white hi-res shot > of the toy robot tractor, (robotrac?) is this the type of quality one > can expect? Or what does it take to get this kind of image? I'm assuming > one is using a B&W video camera producing a stable image, not digitizing > off a home vtr in freeze-frame, though I'd also like to know what you > can expect if you try that too if it's even possible. > > Let's hear it from you golden-eyes out there. > > Thanx, > Keith Doyle > ihnp4!ptsfa!well!kdd We have a digiview system setup here in West Chester, and its very nice. We have an old B&W camera from the lab set up in a copying stand and I've played around with it some, though mainly using the HAM algorithms and the filter wheel. The digitization is very noise free, and anything without large color jumps looks fantastic in HAM (expecially portraits). I haven't tried the hi-res mode, but the HAM routine appears to be just an elaboration of that. The HAM software takes a sample through each of the three filters. Once captures (about 10 seconds), each sample id processed with a contrast enhancing filter, which results in a very good looking B&W image. When 3 of these are sampled, a HAM image can be generated and saved in IFF. On very contrasty images you can get better results by generating a 32 color image instead of the HAM image. -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Dave Haynie {caip,ihnp4,allegra,seismo}!cbmvax!daveh "I don't feel safe in this world no more, I don't want to die in a nuclear war, I want to sail away to a distant shore And live like an ape man." -The Kinks These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be yours too. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
hamilton@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU (08/06/86)
>Speaking of the box, it plugs into the printer port via a ribbon >cable, and has a pass-through port so that the printer can remain >attached. The box itself is ~ 20 * 60 * 80 cm. A cheap microphone >is included, as well as a line-level RCA jack. There is a volume >control. are those 'cm's supposed to be 'mm's? we got a demo of the mimetics sampler at our ug meeting last nite, and it was about the size of a pack of cigarettes. wayne hamilton U of Il and US Army Corps of Engineers CERL UUCP: {ihnp4,pur-ee,convex}!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!hamilton ARPA: hamilton%uiucuxc@a.cs.uiuc.edu USMail: Box 476, Urbana, IL 61801 CSNET: hamilton%uiucuxc@uiuc.csnet Phone: (217)333-8703
billd@crash.UUCP (Bill D'Camp) (08/06/86)
[line-eater? what li The San Diego Amiga Users Group had a demonstration of Digi-view at the July meeting, they had several different approaches to using it. The most successful was in digitizing a plate from an art book, using three passes of RGB (one pass per filter) gel filters. The camera in use was a good quality B/W (I forget the make), and the picture was extremely sharp. They held the plate up next the monitor (a 25-inch Sony RGB) and it was difficult to see any dissimilarities. The digitizer was owned by one of the members of the group and is definitely not in the vapor-ware category. Bill D'Camp
haddock@ti-csl (08/09/86)
I *DO* believe in the line eater! <--- notice that this one remains intact. >(I do not believe in the > Digi-View is certainly real, and you can buy one, now. It >is $199 for the basic unit, plus about $150 for a camera and maybe >$60 or so for a high-quality copy stand. That's plenty cheap for >a high-quality, high-resolution digitizer, which is what Digi-View is. The camera the NewTek recommends list for ~US$300. What kind of decent B/W camera can you get for $150? I also have to disagree with you on your point about high-quality and it being plenty cheap [price]. Considering that you get this little, white, hermatically sealed box (about 2X a matchbox; couldn't be much more than a DAC support components) that's comes with plexiglass "filters" for the camera (which, if you wanted good quality color should have been photo-quality gels) which digitizes images in 10 to 20-seconds per capture, I really couldn't call this high-quality. > Digi-View supports 320x200 32 colors, 320x200 HAM mode, >and 640x400 B&W. With more memory, (512K more, I think) you can get >320x400 32 colors and HAM mode, and 640x400 16 colors. The manual says that more memory (>512K) will allow you to do high-res' color although the software provided appears to be completely unable to do this. Check out the high-res menus - strictly for doing black and white. >This is a VERY professionally-done product, and the software does a >lot to help you get good, high-quality results. It *is* very professional??? It does help you get high quality results? Hmmmm... Maybe I've got high standards/expectations but you need to be reasonably informed about photography and video picture taking to even get GOOD results from this product. Sometimes you're lucky, depending on the image to be captured, but then again a lot of times you're not. Point in case, if the image background contains a varied mix of colors then the colors produced for the HAM mode in the subject tend to be far from true. I've wound up using a white sheet or something similar so that my subject shows up in its proper colors. I mean, that's what it's all about, right (if you're doing color anyhow)? I've also found the 32-color mode to produce sharper pictures than the HAM mode. I'm not really that sure that the software (I still have 1.0 and have sent in my card but no updates nor notice of such) is that much helpful other that containing gadgets to modify the picture. One thing that I fail to comprehend is why, when doing low-res color pictures, the histograms are always normalized to cover the entire range. Also, given that the software can display the various histograms for each of the RGB bit planes, it does not allow the user to manipulate the histograms let alone disallowing them to be normalized. I would venture to guess that the picture's colors would be truer if the histograms were not normalized. >video (the latest revision includes use of image-processing software >that will remove the edge effects found in previous HAM mode images, >giving you sharp, clear images which look about as good as a true >12-bit plane image (4,096 colors!!!)). It sounds like I need the latest revision of the software!!!! >The B&W high resolution is equally stunning; the software does >dithering to achieve a "smooth" quality in the greyscale images. Even with the old software I'll have to agree with you on this. I guess when all is said and done I'd like to know what you mean by "professional". Another thing I feel that NewTek forgot to mention in it's 17-page instruction booklet is the need for a reasonable amount of light. Several of us in sunny Dallas have found that a good, photographer's flood light works wonders for improving the image quality. > -Mitsu (mitsu@well.UUCP) >P.S. These are based on using the product at >demonstrations. I do not own one. I have owned the Digi-View product since the local stores received them back in May or June(?). Don't get me wrong - I don't think that Digi-View is a terrible product but.... I don't believe it to be as wonderful as Mitsu makes it out to be. If and when I get the revision of software that is claimed to work wonders I'll amend my statements accordingly if need be. I'll tell you what the Amiga really needs to make use of this type of hardware. It needs some sort of MacWrite-style text/picture editor that will allow me to EASILY mix both text containing a multitude of GOOD fonts and still be capable of including graphics in the same file. Hey, if you know of one lemme know, please? -Rusty- P.S. I wrote this reply yesterday and called NewTek about the revision to their software today. According to NewTek, the Version 1.1 software should be available at the end of this month. Apparently Mitsu has a dealer with a beta-test version. Also, to confirm this my local dealer just got a new shipment in and they're still shipping version 1.0. According to the gentleman that answered the phone in Kansas by the end of the month NewTek should have settled on their update policy. I was told that less than $10 should get you a new disk when it's ready. ================================================================ *hardcopy* *electr{onic, ic}* Rusty Haddock ARPA: Haddock%TI-CSL@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA POB 226015 M/S 238 CSNET: Haddock@TI-CSL Texas Instruments Inc. USENET: {ut-sally,convex!smu,texsun}!ti-csl!haddock Dallas, Texas 75266 VOICE: (214) 995-0330 Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are entirely my own (although others may share them) and not those of my master, er... employer.
jat@blnt1.UUCP (08/12/86)
Digi-view uses a high-resolution B&W camera -- you can not run composite video from a VCR into it. The pictures are pretty impressive, although HAM mode doesn't look very good on high-contrast pictures, because it takes three pixels to change colors. I think the best mode is 320x200 32 color. The pictures look great and you can play with them in DPaint. The black and white 640x400 is nice, but the quality is definitely NOT that of the dozer. My biggest gripe is the setup required -- you must digitize three separate pictures in RGB mode (through red, green, and blue filters) and each picture takes about 15-20s. You must have good lighting on the source and a stable mounting for the camera, but that is no problem for the photographer types out there. Now if we could get this quality in a real-time digitizer... NOTE: I do not own a Digi-view, and am in no way associated with the company. I have just spent many hours at the local dealer playing with it. John Tamplin Blount Brothers Corporation akgua!blnt1!jat 2511 Fairlane Drive 205/244-6231 Montgomery, AL 36116
mikel@ccvaxa.UUCP (08/13/86)
> are those 'cm's supposed to be 'mm's? we got a demo of the > mimetics sampler at our ug meeting last nite, and it was about the > size of a pack of cigarettes. Another thing we did was to open it up and take a look. The manufactures took a lot of time to remove the chip numbers so we couldn't reproduce it. UUCP: {ihnp4,pur-ee,convex}!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!mikel ARPA: mikel@gswd-vms
wheel@utastro.UUCP (Craig Wheeler) (08/15/86)
In the original post, I believe, the question was raised if Digi-View could digitize an image from a VCR. (Black&White or color) Was this resolved? Rob Wheeler
walker@sas.UUCP (Doug Walker) (08/18/86)
Digiview can digitize any hi-quality 2:1 interlace video signal. However, if the signal is changing while the digitization occurs, which takes 20-25 seconds, you won't get what you want. Thus, you must have a VCR with a VERY GOOD still-frame option to get anything reasonable out of digiview in that case.
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (08/19/86)
In article <1151@utastro.UUCP> wheel@utastro.UUCP (Craig Wheeler) writes: >In the original post, I believe, the question was raised if Digi-View could >digitize an image from a VCR. (Black&White or color) > >Rob Wheeler Probably not, or with unsatisfactory results. The digiview requires a static picture for B&W and a static picture scanned 3 times for color... Perhaps a VCR with a rock-solid stop-motion would work reasonably well for a B&W image, but I'd sure want to try it first, if this is what you want to do... -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (08/20/86)
In article <1151@utastro.UUCP> wheel@utastro.UUCP (Craig Wheeler) writes: >In the original post, I believe, the question was raised if Digi-View could >digitize an image from a VCR. (Black&White or color) > >Rob Wheeler Probably not, or with unsatisfactory results. The digiview requires a static picture for B&W and a static picture scanned 3 times for color... Perhaps a VCR with a rock-solid stop-motion would work reasonably well for a B&W image, but I'd sure want to try it first, if this is what you want to do... -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (08/20/86)
In article <148@sas.UUCP> walker@sas.UUCP (Doug Walker) writes: >Digiview can digitize any hi-quality 2:1 interlace video signal. However, >if the signal is changing while the digitization occurs, which takes >20-25 seconds, you won't get what you want. Thus, you must have a VCR >with a VERY GOOD still-frame option to get anything reasonable out of >digiview in that case. True, but note that you can only get monochrome images this way, since the Digiview really only understands B&W, and color is done with mirrors (oops, i mean filters...) . If you had a device like the GENLOCK that can decompose composite video into analog RGB, you might be able rig something up though... -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)