SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU (10/06/85)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU> Here's a bit more fuel for the fire: Given that Luke/Rinaldo is Brand's son, when did he ever take the pattern (remember, whatever powers he has over shadow are dependent upon taking the pattern before they'll work)? He clearly couldn't have taken it during Nine Princes, Guns, or Unicorn since Brand was imprisoned and couldn't have brought him there in the first place. Now, after Brand was brought back, when did he have the chance to bring Rinaldo to Amber to take the pattern? And even if he did, why wasn't he helping his father afterward? Besides, the implication is that Rinaldo wasn't even around when all this was taking place, since he makes some comment to Merlin about being off in Shadow when Brand died. He could have come by the Black Road, but that would mean that he had some sort of deal with the Courts of Chaos, in which case why didn't Merlin know anything about him? Merlin did grow up there after all... And finally, if Rinaldo had taken the Pattern before "Nine Princes" why didn't he 1) Rescue his father, or at least try? or 2) help him out later? About Corwin's insanity: remember that Merlin said that the Lorgus drives one temporarily insane. Could Corwin have taken the Lorgus...?
Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA (10/10/85)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA ******** Spoiler Warning ******** Perhaps Luke/Rinaldo used Corwin's pattern, which appeared to have power even in the original Amber multiverse. That pattern is unlikely to be so heavily watched as the main Amber pattern. If he later destroyed Corwin's pattern (out of spite for his father's death) this would explain Corwin's insanity. In any case, though, Brand had the power to move anywhere in shadow in an instant. It is possible that brand had a trump for the Amber pattern as well. In either case, Brand could easily have gotten into the pattern with Rinaldo for the time needed to walk the pattern. As I remember, the Pattern room was well below dungeon level in Amber, and very seldom entered. Kurt
SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU (10/14/85)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU> Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie his descendant), in which catagory only Merlin falls. Second, how could he destroy Corwin's pattern? That involves either convincing Corwin to destroy himself in the center of it, or using Merlin's blood, which we know wasn't done (unless he gave blood at college and the blood bank was robbed...:-)
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (10/16/85)
In article <4015@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>, SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes: > Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked Corwin's > pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk Corwin's pattern > supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie his descendant), in > which catagory only Merlin falls. Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws Trumps and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter 1). -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA (10/17/85)
From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA> I am not sure about exactly who can walk a pattern. Does it really require the a genetic inheritance from the original creator, or is the blood of the house of Chaos sufficient to walk a pattern? The latter seems more likely to me, but who knows? Kurt
hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (10/20/85)
In article <282@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >In article <4015@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>, SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes: > >> Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked Corwin's >> pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk Corwin's pattern >> supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie his descendant), in >> which catagory only Merlin falls. > >Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory >serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws Trumps >and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have never >walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while still at >the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter 1). >-- > Robert Plamondon Sorry, but at that time Merlin was an Initiate of the Logrus. I suspect from hints in Courts of Chaos that a Trump is impossible without intimate knowledge of the Pattern or the Logrus, and that Rinaldo may be an Initiate. It may also be that there are other ways to become a shadow walker, perhaps by using a magic ring or some such thing? In any case, Rinaldo shadow-walks in pursuit of Merlin (ok, so anyone can shadow walk by following a true Shadowwalker). But Rinaldo also draws trumps of places prepared as traps, and this indicates that he can find or create things in Shadow. I suspect he would have to get there somehow to do the trump; Merlin seems to have this limitation. Hutch
SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU (10/22/85)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU> Since creating a Pattern causes a genetic change in the creator, merely being of the blood of a house of Chaos shouldn't do any good. The implication, repeated throughout the first set of books, is that you must be decended from the creator of the Pattern so that you will get the proper 'resonance'.
scott@hou2g.UUCP (Colonel'K) (10/22/85)
Why the hell does an article with the seemingly inoculous
title "Amber", which actually discusses Trumps of Doom,
not have A GODDAMN SPOILER MARKING ON IT?
Just because YOU have read the book doesn't mean the rest
of the world has.
Me? I'm waiting for the sequels to come out. If I hadn't
had the first five books to read in a row, I would have
been awful pissed at Zelazny. Who enjoys a novel that ends
practically in the middle of a sentence?
"I *LIKE* to watch..."
Scott J. Berry
ihnp4!hou2g!scottpaws@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Randy Smith) (10/23/85)
Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Amber References: <4015@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>, <282@fear.UUCP> > and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have never > walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while still at > the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter 1). > -- > Robert Plamondon > {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert Yes, but you must have walked the Logrus to do so. Merlin says (in one of his conversations with Bill) that one must be an initiate of either the pattern or the Logrus to draw trumps. Merlin even says that the person who drew his "Trumps of Doom" (ie. Rinaldo) WAS an initiate of either the pattern or Logrus because the Trumps he drew were too good to have been done by someone who was simply from a nearby shadow of Amber or the Courts. -- Randy Smith UUcp: . . . ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!paws Arpa: dvlp.dilvish%uchicago.mailnet@mit-multics.arpa CSnet: randy@uchicago.csnet -- UUcp: . . . ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!paws Arpa: dvlp.dilvish%uchicago.mailnet@mit-multics.arpa CSnet: randy@uchicago.csnet
SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU (10/24/85)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU> Rinaldo does indeed walk through Shadow, specifically when he meets Merlin on the way to the Ghost Wheel and later drags him off to the cave. Since he had no way of knowing where the Wheel was, he couldn't have drawn a trump for it, but would have had to have followed Merlin's trail.
oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev x268) (10/29/85)
If I recall correctly neighbouring Shadows of Amber ( the once next to
it could trade with Amber, as any one of Amber blood could cross into
a Shadow close to his own(?)
--
Disclamer: My employers go to church every Sunday, listen to Country music,
and donate money to GOP. I am just a deviant.
----------------------------------+ Don't bother, I'll find the door,
"Only through a violent revolution| Oleg Kiselev.
can the existing order be pre- |...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg
served..."-Perfect Student Union |...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg