ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) (08/31/86)
<<<<<<<Haute Cuisine>>>>>>>>>>> ***WARNING, FLAMES AHEAD!!!********* As I sit here at my desk I wonder what will happen when December comes around and I *Finally* get the IBM compatability I was promised when I purchased my little gem. By that I mean where will my mouse go? I've heard that the "Sidecar" will take another SQUARE FOOT of tabletop!! combine that with the 3.5 and 5.25 drives I already own and we're talking parking lot city!!! I realize that it may be a little late in the game to suggest packaging formats for the sidecar but when I read things like the AMIGO's description of the amiga 2000 or 2500 or whatever: 'sidecar circuitry & expansion slots built in' (see the latest Amazing computing) I GET *REALLY* PISSED! Meanwhile, my yuppie friends with MAC's can carry their toy anywhere in a fancy little nylon case. What's more, every upgrade APPLE has made has fit INSIDE the MAC case! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make the sidecar sit ON TOP of the amiga CPU!!! Is there any reason to do otherwise?? Engineering problems? Financial problems? What possible reasons are there to make the sidecar sit beside the amiga?? PLEASE RESPOND CBM/AMIGA Ed Chaban Plexus Computers Inc. Phone: (408) 943-2226 Net: sun!plx!mts1!ed
phil@sivax.UUCP (Phil Hunt) (09/02/86)
This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?)
cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) (09/03/86)
I am going to address your message in a pretty much linear fashion : Note that I do not work for commodore and don't have any financial stake in seeing them suceed, I just like the machine... >As I sit here at my desk I wonder what will happen when December >comes around and I *Finally* get the IBM compatability I was promised >when I purchased my little gem. I take it you did not buy the "transformer" software? I realize that it is slow, however it does provide IBM PC compatibility to a greater or lesser degree. I would rate it somewhat worse than an imported clone and somewhat better than the Epson QX-10. I kind of have to ask why if PC compatibility is/was such an issue why you didn't buy a clone with an EGA card ? >By that I mean where will my mouse >go? I've heard that the "Sidecar" will take another SQUARE FOOT of >tabletop!! combine that with the 3.5 and 5.25 drives I already own >and we're talking parking lot city!!! The mouse fits comfortably in front of the sidecar. The sidecars "front" is in the same plane as the Amiga's "front". If you were hoping to put the mouse behind this plane then you will encounter some difficulty. There is a 5.25" drive built into the sidecar that doesn't take up any more space and you can plug an existing 5.25" drive into the back of the sidecar and rest it on top. You can also rest the 3.5" drive on top too. Granted though it will require more deskspace. >I realize that it may be a little late in the game to suggest >packaging formats for the sidecar but when I read things like >the AMIGO's description of the amiga 2000 or 2500 or whatever: > 'sidecar circuitry & expansion slots built in' >(see the latest Amazing computing) I GET *REALLY* PISSED! So what pisses you off? That the later version of the Amiga will have built in PC compatibility and slots, or that the sidecar for the A1000 is this "add to the side" kind of thing? If it is the first I feel sorry that you feel that way but I can guaruntee you that *any* machine you buy will have a faster/cheaper/more capable follow on if it is successful. (IBM's might be excepted from this since IBM is so slow in adopting new technology, however they to get around to it eventually) As for the second possibility there really was no other way to do it. >Meanwhile, my yuppie friends with MAC's can carry their toy >anywhere in a fancy little nylon case. What's more, every upgrade >APPLE has made has fit INSIDE the MAC case! Several points here, first do your yuppie friends have "MAcCharlie" to run PC programs and does that fit in the case? Second, do your yuppie friends where glasses from squinting at a 9" screen? Do your yuppie friends have color, or extra keys on the keyboard to make their life interesting? Have they ever had the strap break and imploded their monitor? With very little effort you can carry an amiga around in a zero-haliburton case with a small monochrome monitor. Do you want to? Did you know you could get easy portibility and PC compatibility by buying a Zenith laptop and microsoft windows? >PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make the sidecar sit ON TOP of the amiga CPU!!! >Is there any reason to do otherwise?? >Engineering problems? >Financial problems? >What possible reasons are there to make the sidecar sit beside the amiga?? Three problems with putting the sidecar on top of the Amiga : o Noise (from the buss cable) o Timing ( every nanosecond counts on this bus) o FCC (unless you put the thing in a faraday box you would blast recption for miles) Now for a more personal note, the people who made the sidecar possible did it because they thought it would be a neat project. As I understand it it took some effort to even get Commodore to attempt to market it. I for one am glad that they did and will get one because I think it is neat and because I don't think loderunner will ever be ported to the Amiga. It also makes it possible to run a lot of peripheral cards that might not otherwise make it into the Amiga world. When the Amiga 2000 comes out I may upgrade and I may not, I am having a hell of a time hacking on the original! -- --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
andy@amiga.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (09/03/86)
In article <326@sivax.UUCP> phil@sivax.UUCP (Phil Hunt) writes: > >This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable >connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make >and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?) Can you say antenna, boys and girls ? I knew you could. Getting that by the FCC would be a trick...There are certain problem in sending bus speed signals out over a ribbon cable. It's a different world than when the KIM-4 expansion board came out :-) andy finkel -- andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy or pyramid!amiga!andy Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. "Remember, no matter where you grow, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonsai.
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (09/04/86)
>This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable >connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make >and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?) It seems to me that the designers of the right expansion bus had in mind stuff being connected to the right-side of the amiga, not the top. I for one see no problem with that. As for your last comment, you're completely unrealistic (obviously your not an Electrical Engineering Major!). I doubt you could have a ribbon cable more than a couple of feet long before signal degradation causes it to become unusable. Also, it would *really* have to be shielded or it would never get FCC approval. I think the only way commodore's going to get that is if they snuggle sidecar right up against the right side! (I haven't seen sidecar, anybody on the net want to comment?) -Matt
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/04/86)
In article <326@sivax.UUCP> phil@sivax.UUCP (Phil Hunt) writes: > >This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable >connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make >and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?) Alas, there are two problems here: First, FCC issues - that's a real microprocessor bus with 7MHz+ signals. The cable would have to very well shielded to avoid problems. Second, the expansion connector is not buffered. The pins connect directly to the 68000. If you put to much load and/or too long a wire on them, your system will stop working, or a least become quite flakey. -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (09/04/86)
In article <6802@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) writes: >Three problems with putting the sidecar on top of the Amiga : > o Noise (from the buss cable) > o Timing ( every nanosecond counts on this bus) > o FCC (unless you put the thing in a faraday box you would blast > recption for miles) Sorry, I'm not an expert, but I don't buy any of those reasons. I feel the same dissapointment as Chuck McManis does. I don't have space to the side of my Amiga. The buss cable could be shielded. It would only have to be about 4 inches long. I don't believe that would screw up the timing (I understand that a signal propagates more than 12 inches in a nano-second, so 4 inches would effect timing by 1/3 nano-second or so -- can't be that critical -- the CPU isn't going all *that* fast afterall). The FCC isn't going to care if the thing sits on top, under, behind, or to the side. The FCC does care about noise and like I said the bus cable could be shielded. I think the real reason is that they came up with the name, then later realized they couldn't very well put a "side-car" on top. That plus the few extra bucks it would cost to have 4 inches of shielded cable (maybe $20 ?). OK all you engineers, go ahead and flame me about what 4 inches can do. Marnix -- Marnix A. van\ Ammers Home: (707) 644-9781 Work: (415) 545-8334 {ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70
vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (09/04/86)
Oops I didn't mean Chuck McMannis in the previous article.
I meant the original poster. -- Marnix --
--
Marnix A. van\ Ammers
Home: (707) 644-9781 Work: (415) 545-8334
{ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) (09/04/86)
> Alas, there are two problems here: > > First, FCC issues - that's a real microprocessor bus with 7MHz+ signals. The > cable would have to very well shielded to avoid problems. > > Second, the expansion connector is not buffered. The pins connect directly to > the 68000. If you put to much load and/or too long a wire on them, your system > will stop working, or a least become quite flakey. > -- FLAME ON !!! BULL, BULL & MORE BULL! Have you seen the Byte by Byte PAL??? It sits on top of the amiga and is connected to the expansion connector. the way I see it CBM/AMIGA Leaves me with 2 options as far as my footprint problems are concerned: (1) Get a bigger desk (I'd sooner expand my den and fill it with vacum tubes from an ENIAC!!) (2) Junk my A1000 and buy a A2000 or A2500 or whatever (as a person who bought the amiga BEFORE the free monitor promo I won't comment on what my reaction to this is!!) There is another option you know........ (3) FOR SALE: AMIGA 1000 computer 512k extra 3.5" drive 1040 monitor 5.25 drive with "Transformer" (AKA 'downs syndrome' PC emulator) WILL TRADE FOR MACINTOSH w/ Mac Charlie Geez, I thought that the money hungry opportunists left with Schlemeil Trameil!! Way to go amiga !! Screw your existing customer base!! I have a machine that is about a year old and it's obsolete already!! How about it? how do some of the rest of you in net-land feel? are you happy to know that the company you have been faithful to has no intension of keeping you compatable with future products! My amiga is useless, finished, another PC-JR!! it's no wonder that Consumer Reports magazine called the amiga a "HIGH TECH DOORSTOP" By the way I'm serious about my amiga being for sale!! anyone interested can contact me: FLAME OFF! Ed Chaban Plexus Computers Inc. Phone: (408) 943-2226 Net: sun!plx!mts1!ed Disclaimer: It is obvious that my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. I WONDER OF CBM/AMIGA REALIZES THAT THERE MAY BE OTHERS OUT THERE OF A SIMILAR BENT !!!!!!! -epc-
cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) (09/04/86)
This is a reference to Marnix A. van\ Ammers article <277@pttesac.UUCP> I am including at the end for reference but not up front since people always seem to misinterpret who sent what. Marnix et al, I was not the one dissapointed in the placement of the sidecar. And I would like to clarify some of the points I made in my original rebuttal to the person (I am sorry but I don't have the original and don't remmeber your name) who complained about the sidecar and the state of things in general. My three reasons that I speculated for Commodore not putting the side car on top were noise, timing relationships, and the FCC. On the first, a ribbon cable would generate quite a bit of noise, for a good treatise on the subject call up Byte by Byte in texas and talk to them about getting the Pal certified. (It uses the cable to the expansion unit on top approach. When they were showing it at a Badge meeting the connector appeared to be a machined housing that consisted of the outer shield box and an inner pc board that did the actual connecting. All things considered this seems like a reasonable way of doing things but it is expensive. [On a side note, while it is difficult and expensive for C/A to add a ribbon cable, no one is stopping you, the industrious hacker, from kluging up anything you want.] As for timing I did a paper design of a SCSI controller that would plug into the side of the Amiga and was quite shocked at how little margin there was for getting signals routed around. I found my self going from LS to ALS to F just to meet my performance goals. In two cases the margin for strobe to data valid was under 5 ns. If I wanted to design to that close a spec I had better make darn sure the lines between my board and the cpu were as clean and as fast as possible. Ribbon cable and 24 Ga wire in general doesn't seem to friendly to this. I grant you it is not impossible but it does add one more hindrance to reliable operation. Lastly, I brought up that venerable institution the FCC. (:-)) Due to a combination of factors they have simultaneously become more strict and slower in their processing. They have to approve all computing devices that go into the home. They measure them by their RF emissions. Try this experiment : Go get a 4 inch piece of ribbon cable and connect it to a connector. Then connect this assembly to your Amiga, then turn on your TV. See all that pretty snow? That is why the FCC wouldn't approve it. Now wrap that connector in foil and try to make the snow go away, not easy is it. It could be worse, you could use a 5" cable and find it was exactly 16 wavelengths long, (given the 7.14 Mhz signals) and really watch the noise fly. I guess I am trying to stress it is difficult and expensive and both of those would hinder the production I suspect. Those are my opinions we welcome your replies ... --Chuck >>>>>>>>>> original article follows <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > In article <6802@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) writes: > >Three problems with putting the sidecar on top of the Amiga : > > o Noise (from the buss cable) > > o Timing ( every nanosecond counts on this bus) > > o FCC (unless you put the thing in a faraday box you would blast > > recption for miles) > > Sorry, I'm not an expert, but I don't buy any of those reasons. > I feel the same dissapointment as Chuck McManis does. I don't > have space to the side of my Amiga. The buss cable could be shielded. > It would only have to be about 4 inches long. I don't believe that > would screw up the timing (I understand that a signal propagates > more than 12 inches in a nano-second, so 4 inches would effect > timing by 1/3 nano-second or so -- can't be that critical -- > the CPU isn't going all *that* fast afterall). > > The FCC isn't going to care if the thing > sits on top, under, behind, or to the side. The FCC does care about > noise and like I said the bus cable could be shielded. > > I think the real reason is that they came up with the name, > then later realized they couldn't very well put a "side-car" > on top. That plus the few extra bucks it would > cost to have 4 inches of shielded cable (maybe $20 ?). > > OK all you engineers, go ahead and flame me about what > 4 inches can do. > > Marnix > -- > Marnix A. van\ Ammers > Home: (707) 644-9781 Work: (415) 545-8334 > {ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70 -- --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
perry@atux01.UUCP (P. Kivolowitz) (09/04/86)
In article <326@sivax.UUCP>, phil@sivax.UUCP (Phil Hunt) writes: > This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable > connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make > and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?) Ribbon cables cannot be used due to shielding and distance problems. Perry
alverson@decwrl.DEC.COM (Robert Alverson) (09/05/86)
First of all, let's not say a stackable expansion box is impossible. But, simple solutions will have undesirable features. A ribbon cable will probably increase crosstalk between signals on the bus as well as increase the ringing noise on the signals. These combine to produce RFI and less reliable bus operation. But, hey, IBM made an expansion box for the PC that solved these problems. The same ideas can be applied here. The only price is that expansion memory will probably have to run with the dreaded wait states. At least operations to local memory will not be degraded. Bob
bogstad@brl-smoke.ARPA (William Bogstad ) (09/05/86)
In article <8609040037.AA12030@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >>This request for a sidecar on top of the Amiga, how about a ribbon cable >>connecting the Amiga bus to the sidecar edge, it would be simple to make >>and allow the sidecar to be placed ANYWHERE (even the next room?) > > As for your last comment, you're completely unrealistic (obviously >your not an Electrical Engineering Major!). I doubt you could have a ribbon >cable more than a couple of feet long before signal degradation causes it to >become unusable. I just finished backing up a 142 Mbyte Disk through a ribbon cable connected to the drive on one machine and a controller on another. The cable was ~20 feet long. When connected normally the cable length is about 5 feet. Obviously it depends on what kind of electronics is at the end of the cable. The cable is just a regular 50-wire ribbon. Why do we do this? Well, we couldn't afford to buy a second tape drive for the other system so we cross connect the drives when we do backups. Bill Bogstad bogstad@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa bogstad@brl-smoke.arpa
keithe@tekgvs.UUCP (Keith Ericson) (09/05/86)
In article <5162@decwrl.DEC.COM> alverson@decwrl.UUCP (Robert Alverson) writes: > >First of all, let's not say a stackable expansion box is impossible. >But, simple solutions will have undesirable features. A ribbon cable >will probably increase crosstalk between signals on the bus as well >as increase the ringing noise on the signals. OK, folks. Here's my idea which you are free to have (as long as Tek doesn't come after you for it. But they don't know Amigas exist, anyway.) Instead of ribbon cable you use a high-quality, multilayer circuit-board designed with microstrip lines and shielding layers to interconnect the Amiga main box to your expansion system WHICH HAD BETTER SIT ON TOP OF THE AMIGA IF YOU'RE GONNA WANT ANYONE WITH A NORMAL SIZED DESK TO BUY IT!!! The pc-board/interconnect system would have to allow for some tolerance in the separation between the Amiga connector and the exp.box connector, but this has been done before - usually with one connecter that "floats" a little in it's mounting to the box. Getting the signals from hither to yon just ain't that hard a problem, given that "yon" is only a few inches away! keith (I dropped an assembly-language class in college 'cause I'll never be doin' any of that computer stuff, anyway) ericson at Teklabs -- -- -- -- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | =========================))============================ =========================((============================ (Turn this --^ sideways and connect Amiga to ExpBox)
farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) (09/05/86)
In article <239@plx.UUCP> ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) writes: [ In response to the "side or top" argument, on the "top" side ] > >Have you seen the Byte by Byte PAL??? >It sits on top of the amiga and is connected to the expansion connector. > > There is another option you know........ > [...] > WILL TRADE FOR MACINTOSH w/ Mac Charlie > Well, first - have you seen the PRICE of the PAL? What C/A is trying to do, it seems to me, is to produce the most affordable unit they can (and I'm all for that!). If that means that I have to use up more of my linear desk room, I'll do it - not that much sits alongside the Amiga, anyhow, that can't be moved to the top of the sidecar. As far as trading the Amiga for a Mac with Mac Charlie - are you o.k.? Do you need help? There are good counseling services available in your comm- unity. :-) -- ---------------- "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) (09/06/86)
> Well, first - have you seen the PRICE of the PAL? What C/A is trying to do, > it seems to me, is to produce the most affordable unit they can (and I'm all > for that!). If that means that I have to use up more of my linear desk room, > I'll do it - not that much sits alongside the Amiga, anyhow, that can't be > moved to the top of the sidecar. The point I'm trying to make is that rather than take an elegant approach to the Amiga 1000 problem, CBM/AMIGA is turning the A1000 into a Hardware Kludge with connectors and cables all over the place!! Furthermore, the announcement of the A2000 or A2500 or whatever makes me suspicious as to just what the product life cycle of the A1000 is. the "New Amiga" is supposed to have a 68010 in it. Will the A1000 be fully software compatable with this unit? I doubt it. Sure the 68010 includes the 68000 instruction set but it also has a few instructions that are not in the 68000. I'm almost sure that software developers will want to develop software that runs well on this new "Business Amiga" What does that mean to those of us with A1000's?? Do we have another PC-JR on our hands? runs SOME but not ALL the software available for it's big brother?? Can you blame me for wanting to unload this turkey before the A2000 hits the streets? Remember I paid FULL PRICE for this unit ($2600). My Amiga was my first *REAL* computer. I expected a long loving relationship. She broke my heart instead....... Ed Chaban Plexus Computers Inc. Phone: (408) 943-2226 Net: sun!plx!mts1!ed Disclaimer: My opinions are my own not my employer's
robinson@shadow.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) (09/06/86)
In article <697@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >First, FCC issues - that's a real microprocessor bus with 7MHz+ signals. The >cable would have to very well shielded to avoid problems. > >Second, the expansion connector is not buffered. The pins connect directly to >the 68000. If you put to much load and/or too long a wire on them, your system >will stop working, or a least become quite flakey. I am sick of this discussion of all the stupid reasons why the sidecar can't be placed on the top of the computer. From the discussion you would think that shielded cable would have to be smuggled in from Borneo. For all you engineers at Commodore, all I ask is, if you do in fact design the sidecar to go on the side of the computer, that you put an edge connector, identical to the one on the Amiga, on the right-hand side of the Sidecar. That way some clever enterpreneur (like myself, for instance) can become filthy rich selling little three inch jumpers to all those people out there who really want to put their Sidecars in a sensible location. Or, if you prefer, I will design and engineer the jumper free of charge for you (I will, of course, guarantee it passes FCC, assuming the rest of the Sidecar does). If the Amiga bus cannot drive an extra three inches of copper, then something must be seriously amiss at Commodore. As things stand, if someone *really* wanted to put their Sidecar on top of the computer they would have to run about two feet of ribbon cable and take their chances with random bus flakiness and the FCC be damned. >George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr >but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV >Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories Some assembly required The Surgeon General has determined that smoking is hazardous to your health I was holding it for a friend Product is sold as is with no warranty, either expressed or implied Mike "deletion sort" Robinson USENET: ucbvax!ernie!robinson ARPA: robinson@ernie.berkeley.edu
rjg@meccts.UUCP (Robert J. Granvin) (09/06/86)
OK. Maybe the Amiga after a year/two years of life will be "outdated" (what defines outdated, anyways? when a new model comes out? silly (usually)). Granted, it takes desk space, however, it is quite unfair to compare it to a Macintosh. The Amiga offers many things that a Macintosh won't, and if your main need is a PC/XT compatible, then perhaps you shouldn't be thinking of an Amiga or a Mac at all? Ponder this: How many years has the Macintosh existed? (Include all the permutations of the Lisa also, if you will, but either way, the results are the same.) Question: How many different versions of the machine can you count? How many of them are not compatible, or fully compatible with the previous versions? How many iterations did Apple go through before they got it "right?" (subjective question. Some believe they got it right immediately, some are still waiting). Compare this to the Amiga and the future Amigas. Which one will compare better? Consider machine and software updates. Which one has actually been better. Compare specs. What are the maximum capabilties of both? Of course, I can go on forever, and everyones opinion is different, but if your desk space is your only reason for anger and imminent machine dumping, there's nothing anyone can say because you made a decision when you purchased the machine, and you're not considering its value over it's size. Then again, those are just my opinions on it. Sigh.
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/07/86)
In article <15575@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> robinson@shadow.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Michael Robinson) writes: > >I am sick of this discussion of all the stupid reasons why the sidecar can't >be placed on the top of the computer. From the discussion you would think >that shielded cable would have to be smuggled in from Borneo. For all you >engineers at Commodore, all I ask is, if you do in fact design the sidecar >to go on the side of the computer, that you put an edge connector, identical >to the one on the Amiga, on the right-hand side of the Sidecar. That way some >clever enterpreneur (like myself, for instance) can become filthy rich selling >little three inch jumpers to all those people out there who really want to put >their Sidecars in a sensible location. Or, if you prefer, I will design and >engineer the jumper free of charge for you (I will, of course, guarantee it >passes FCC, assuming the rest of the Sidecar does). I case you didn't notice, most of the ribbon cable flames were directed to the person who wanted to attach an arbitrary length of cable, perhaps running over the next room. The two common systems that use cables, the PC/Expansion Box combo and the TI99/4A both use driver/receiver cards *and* add wait states when the external box is accessed. Of course the sidecar *might* work just fine with a two foot ribbon cable between it and the Amiga, but this setup is unlikely to pass FCC tests. It is one of those unpleasant facts of life that if a Commodore sells a product that attaches to a specific device, it is the system, as configured, that must pass FCC, not just the individual components. >If the Amiga bus cannot drive an extra three inches of copper, then something >must be seriously amiss at Commodore. > >Mike "deletion sort" Robinson USENET: ucbvax!ernie!robinson The 68000 processor drives the lines on the expansion connector, and sits about one inch from the connector. Most of it's loading and drive are devoted to driving the on-board components. The Zorro derived expansion boards are required to promptly and efficiently buffer all relevant signals. The prototype Byte-by-Byte box I saw had these buffers on an adapter board that connected the two boxes. ----- Note: I did not design either the A1000 or Sidecar, and can derive no great enjoyment from defending the design issues implented. What you do in the privacy of your own home is between you, the FCC and your next-door neighbors TV set. -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) (09/07/86)
In article <239@plx.UUCP> ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) writes: > > WILL TRADE FOR MACINTOSH w/ Mac Charlie > Obviously this guy should have bought an IBM PC.
walker@sas.UUCP (Doug Walker) (09/08/86)
In article <239@plx.UUCP>, ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) writes: > Geez, I thought that the money hungry opportunists left with Schlemeil > Trameil!! Way to go amiga !! Screw your existing customer base!! > I have a machine that is about a year old and it's obsolete already!! > > How about it? how do some of the rest of you in net-land feel? > are you happy to know that the company you have been faithful to > has no intension of keeping you compatable with future products! > My amiga is useless, finished, another PC-JR!! Come on, you knew what you were buying last year! - a BRAND NEW machine, which means you have to take all the risks and joys of being a pioneer! If you wanted safety in a machine, you belonged with a pee-cee clone! I have advised non- technical friends NOT to get an Amiga just for that reason. Your Amiga is JUST AS USEFUL NOW as it was when you bought it - how could it be otherwise, it's the same one! Anyone who buys a personal computer on FAITH that some product will be forthcoming is a fool. > > it's no wonder that Consumer Reports magazine called the amiga a > > "HIGH TECH DOORSTOP" Yes, CR did call the Amiga a "HIGH TECH DOORSTOP" - last December! The reasons was because there was no software base at that time, not because of the capabilities of the machine. In the most recent issue, they have a very comprehensive review in which they are very complimentary to the Amiga's capabilities, NOW THAT SOFTWARE IS AVAILABLE. Of course CR isn't going to recommend an Amiga to its non-technical readers before the machine is established, for the same reason I didn't recommend it to my friend! > of my employer. I WONDER OF CBM/AMIGA REALIZES THAT THERE > MAY BE OTHERS OUT THERE OF A SIMILAR BENT !!!!!!! And I'm sure that CBM/AMIGA realizes there will always be those who feel ripped off by the vagaries of the personal computer marketplace. I bought my Amiga in March, just one month before the free monitor promo, and I have never felt ripped off. Do you expect a refund from Food Town because they cut the price of Coke from $1.49 to $1.09 the day after you bought a bottle? As Ann Landers would say, "Wake up and smell the coffee!"
danny@convex.UUCP (09/10/86)
> Furthermore, the announcement of the A2000 or A2500 or whatever makes > me suspicious as to just what the product life cycle of the A1000 is. > the "New Amiga" is supposed to have a 68010 in it. Will the A1000 be fully > software compatable with this unit? I doubt it. Sure the 68010 includes > the 68000 instruction set but it also has a few instructions that are not > in the 68000. I'm almost sure that software developers will want to > develop software that runs well on this new "Business Amiga" What does that > mean to those of us with A1000's?? Do we have another PC-JR on our hands? > runs SOME but not ALL the software available for it's big brother?? Geez. Don't you think that you could put in a 68010 yourself or pay somebody else to do it? Nay, couldn't be done. Besides, Commodore isn't stupid (well, that stupid), they hopefully have learned the lesson Apple painfully has and will offer upgrades in increments at reasonable price such that any Amiga 1000 upgraded any way will be upgradable in steps like say Motherboard - brand new or send in old and upgraded send back Case - metal one Sidecar - just like normal or go the rout of Coleco with Adam, offer something that plugs in the side that will make the computer 100% compatible with new computer [read enhanced Sidecar with 68020/68881 and IBM and Zorro slots] How 'bout it C-A? Dan Wallach ...!ihnp4!convex!danny
mwm@eris.berkeley.edu (Mike Meyer) (09/10/86)
In article <241@plx.UUCP> ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) writes: >The point I'm trying to make is that rather than take an elegant approach >to the Amiga 1000 problem, CBM/AMIGA is turning the A1000 into a >Hardware Kludge with connectors and cables all over the place!! But only if you want to make your Amiga act like an IBM PC. In which case, all you're getting is what you're asking for (and what you deserve). BTW, I'm assuming that when you say "the Amiga 1000 problem," you're referring to the Amiga's inability to run eighty-eightysux code. That's not a problem, that's a FEATURE! >Furthermore, the announcement of the A2000 or A2500 or whatever makes >me suspicious as to just what the product life cycle of the A1000 is. >the "New Amiga" is supposed to have a 68010 in it. Will the A1000 be fully >software compatable with this unit? I doubt it. Sure the 68010 includes >the 68000 instruction set but it also has a few instructions that are not >in the 68000. I'm almost sure that software developers will want to >develop software that runs well on this new "Business Amiga". Not true. The extra instructions on the 68010 are there to deal with the VM support the chip has. Code compatability from the 68010 to the 68000 is almost identical to code compatability from the 68000 to the 68010: only of concern to OS programmers and the careless. Of course, if it really worries you, plug a 68010 into your Amiga. It's easy, and instructions can be found on Fish disk #18 (finding a 68010 is a bit harder). That plus a multi-slot expansion box is supposed to give you the equivalent of the A2000. >Can you blame me for wanting to unload this turkey before the A2000 hits >the streets? Remember I paid FULL PRICE for this unit ($2600). Given your misconcpetions, no. However, I *CAN* blame you for 1) not buying what you wanted in the first place (an IBM PC clone) and 2) not checking on the differences between a 68010 and a 68000. <mike