kdd@well.UUCP (Keith David Doyle) (09/10/86)
References: [................] >Can you blame me for wanting to unload this turkey before the A2000 hits >the streets? Remember I paid FULL PRICE for this unit ($2600). >My Amiga was my first *REAL* computer. I expected a long loving >relationship. >Ed Chaban 'To dream the impossible dream....' Whaddoyou expect? NONE of the available machines are absolutely perfect. Have you spent any time looking at the Mac or ST newsgroups or on various BBS's? If you did, you might learn a few things about the grass on the other side. For one thing, you'd find that most of the PD software that gets posted is BINARY. Now look at the Amiga groups, mostly SOURCE. To me that's a big advantage (I bought it so I could program it, not so it could program me). To you perhaps that's a disadvantage (whine, whine, I don't want to pay $$$ for a compiler). Sure you could wait for the A2000, but then again, maybe you should wait for the A3000, or the A4000, they should be even better yet! In fact, the longer you wait the better the machines get. Fancy that! But jeez, in the meantime, you've got nothing to use. Oh well. Did you ever get pissed because you bought a '84 Toyota, and then found that the '85's had a talking clock? Uh oh, now I have to sell the '84 to get that feature. You could have waited till '85, but then you would have had nothing to drive for '84. You have the same problems when you buy any other computer, or calculators, VCR's, any INTERESTING product that is going through hi-tech evolution. Waiting for the ultimate computer? Well, just a minute.................... .......................don't see it........................................ .......................................Nope, not here yet.................. ....................uh-uh.................................................. ..................................listen, can I get back with you later?... ........................................................................... That's life bozo. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa "You'll PAY to know what you REALLY think!"
ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) (09/11/86)
> Whaddoyou expect? NONE of the available machines are absolutely perfect. > Have you spent any time looking at the Mac or ST newsgroups or on various > BBS's? If you did, you might learn a few things about the grass on the > other side. For one thing, you'd find that most of the PD software that gets > posted is BINARY. Now look at the Amiga groups, mostly SOURCE. To me that's > a big advantage (I bought it so I could program it, not so it could program I don't give a SH*T about SOURCE BOZO!!! I need a machine to do spreadsheets, graphs, WYSIWIG Wordprocessing (With decent fonts) etc... I AM A BUSINESS USER!!! I NEED A BUSINESS MACHINE!!! NOT A HACKERS TOY!! I MADE A MISTAKE, I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT A MAC!!! > That's life bozo. > > Keith Doyle > # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd > # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa > "You'll PAY to know what you REALLY think!" By the way, some of you may be interested to know that I have received ONE (1) bid for my "For Sale" AMIGA. The bid ($1000) was about $500 low for my tastes. The reason I say that is that a fat MAC with an external drive (used system) is going for about $1500. It seems that my amiga is having real problems retaining resale value!! Ed Chaban Plexus Computers Inc. Phone: (408) 943-2226 < Don't call unless you wanna make an offer for the machine Net: sun!plx!mts1!ed Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, as usual
rokicki@navajo.STANFORD.EDU (Tomas Rokicki) (09/12/86)
Okay, I can't help myself. Here is the first of many flames. In article <251@plx.UUCP>, ed@plx.UUCP (Ed Chaban) writes: > I don't give a SH*T about SOURCE BOZO!!! > I need a machine to do spreadsheets, > graphs, WYSIWIG Wordprocessing (With decent fonts) etc... > > I AM A BUSINESS USER!!! I NEED A BUSINESS MACHINE!!! NOT A HACKERS > TOY!! I MADE A MISTAKE, I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT A MAC!!! You are right, you did make a mistake. If you need a business machine, you do not hop out and buy the latest hot rod computer; if you need a reliable, easy to maintain family car, you do not buy a Ferrari. The Amiga is currently the best hacker's machine on the market, bar none, largely because of the support community and enthusiasm. It is not yet a business machine, nor may it ever be. > By the way, some of you may be interested to know that I have received > ONE (1) bid for my "For Sale" AMIGA. > The bid ($1000) was about $500 low for my > tastes. The reason I say that is that a fat MAC with an external drive > (used system) is going for about $1500. It seems that my amiga is having > real problems retaining resale value!! A friend of mine just bought, new, from a dealer, mind you, an Amiga, monitor, and external drive for $1000. Why should anyone pay more than that for a used machine? I am sorry you made a bad purchase, but it is not the Amiga's fault. You bought it for what it could be, not what it was; sort of like marrying someone, that strategy seldom works. -tom
ranjit@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Ranjit Bhatnagar) (09/16/86)
[ ] > ... about SOURCE BOZO ... >> ... That's life bozo ... I keep expecting Sonny Bozo to post a rebuttal. (Re: Cherware) Speaking of ultimate computers, the Apple GS now exists; can anyone offer a comparison with the A1000? All I know so far is that the GS is slower and II compatible, and gray ("platinum"). Apple II compatibility is like making a race-car Volkswagen compatible, but it could help business. Speaking of compatibility, is there any interest in a simple Apple II emulator running on the A? I've been thinking of doing something like that, if I ever have time and a computer to work on. Speaking of programming, are there any "program frameworks" for the Amiga like MacApp for the Mac which provide all the minimum daily requirements for a well-behaved application, and which provide a higher-level interface for programmers who don't really care just how cool the Amiga OS is? Something like AmigaBASIC, in fact, would be good, if it wasn't BASIC. .......(o o)....... ranjit@cory.berkeley.edu ---vvv---U---vvv--- ucbvax!cory!ranjit "Irrationality is the square root of all evil" - Douglas Hofstadter
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/17/86)
In article <180@zen.BERKELEY.EDU> ranjit@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Ranjit Bhatnagar) writes: >[ ] > >Speaking of ultimate computers, the Apple GS now exists; can anyone offer >a comparison with the A1000? All I know so far is that the GS is slower >and II compatible, and gray ("platinum"). Apple II compatibility is like >making a race-car Volkswagen compatible, but it could help business. > > .......(o o)....... ranjit@cory.berkeley.edu Well, it's pretty soon to tell, but the new apple sounds pretty interesting. My thougts are that it's good news for Apple Lovers and Apple, and marks the end of the 'One Size Fits All' MacReligion reign at Apple. It should give the Apple II market a shot in the arm and may have some interesting inter- actions with the Laser Apple IIC clones. On the other hand, it's not clear that it will have much effect on the Amiga/ST/Mac/PC world, kind of like Henry Ford announcing the availability of the Model T in colors other than black... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (09/17/86)
> Speaking of ultimate computers, the Apple GS now exists; can anyone offer > a comparison with the A1000? All I know so far is that the GS is slower > and II compatible, and gray ("platinum"). Apple II compatibility is like > making a race-car Volkswagen compatible, but it could help business. The GS graphics are closer to the Amiga's than most things around, at least from the viewpoint of the 4096 colors. That's 16 simultaneous at 320x200, 4 at 640x200; nothing earthshaking there. I expected them to have some kind of graphics assist, like a blitter, but so far everything I've read describes the video chip as a "controller", not a "co-processor". They have some kind of facility available for changing the color mapping on the fly, the 16 colors are fixed for every horizontal line. It sounds more like having the Amiga's copper change the register values after each scan line than our HAM mode, though its possible they's got a faster way (too early to tell, I've got a few ideas on that). The video chip operates only in the 128K of dedicated video RAM; the PCB also has another 128K available to the 65C816. This processor is running at 2.8MHz; kind of a cop-out, they're probably paying for 4MHz parts, though as of recently real 4MHz parts were kind of hand-selected from the 2MHz bin. The 65C816 itself is externally very much like a 65C02; though is provides an extra 4 bits of address, it still has an 8 bit only bus. I'd expect it to run much like an 8088; it has more addressing modes but fewer instructions. The 2.8MHz 65C816 runs a bus cycle equivalent to a 10.4MHz 8088 or 68008. It doesn't have any multiply instructions, and is kind of anit-RISC in that almost every instruction can access memory; there's 1 general purpose register, 2 index registers, and a few block segment registers (1 for data, 1 for program). The GP register can be set up for either 8 or 16 bit operation; this requires 1 instruction to switch. The sound chip is made by Ensoniq, a company started by a bunch of old CBM folks -- this could be the best feature of the machine; the Ensoniq folks make commercial synthesizers for a living. Can reportedly do 15 voices, though I've no idea how much uP time is needed to use it effectively. Anyway, overall this machine is probably good news for all those old Apple ][e enthusiasts. It could have been competition for the PC back in the old days, as I believe overall it'll run faster than a standard PC. I doubt it'll look that great next to the 16 bit bus machines, though of course recall that unlike much of the current 68000 machine software, much of that old Apple stuff is written in tight machine code. By the way, the computer's demo is a rotating picture of the computer itself. And guess who's on the screen of the rotating picture -- you've got it, our old friend Boing!, bouncing up and down (don't know how fast). Anyone want to write a comeback program? -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Dave Haynie {caip,ihnp4,allegra,seismo}!cbmvax!daveh "I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment." -Gotama Buddha These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be yours too. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
preece@ccvaxa.UUCP (09/18/86)
> [ranjit@cory.berkeley.edu writes] > Apple II compatibility is like making a race-car Volkswagen > compatible, but it could help business. ---------- If making a race car "Volkswagen-compatible" meant making it run on normal gasoline, that wouldn't be such a bad thing, marketing-wise. The number of programs available for the Apple II is something like two orders of magnitude greater than the number available for the Amiga. That's called a built-in market. The ONLY machine for which substantial quantities of school software is available is the Apple II. ---------- > Speaking of compatibility, is there any interest in a simple Apple II > emulator running on the A? ---------- An Apple II emulator would sell lots of machines, if it was (a) really compatible and (b) faster than an Apple II. Schools are a BIG market; homes are a big market; the Apple II software available for those markets is most of what's available for those markets. The Amiga offers enhanced capabilities in exactly the right places for those markets to compete with the Apple II (though the GS may have made and end run around the Amiga's capabilities in some areas). I'm not sure that the Amiga is fast enough to do a software emulation and I'm not sure that a hardware add-on could be cheap enough to leave the whole system competitive (schools take bids -- if you've got to sell the cheapest system capable of meeting performance requirements that are based on an Apple II, you've got to be cheaper than an Apple II or offer some advantage that is so clear that you can convince school boards to include it in the RFP; multi-tasking isn't going to make it). -- scott preece gould/csd - urbana uucp: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece arpa: preece@gswd-vms
dpz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (David P. Zimmerman) (09/19/86)
ever will believe in such a thing as a lineeater] >'To dream the impossible dream....' Ah yes... I've always wanted a 80x25 color screen, 1024x1024x16 graphics, full keyboard, 20 meg HD, and 16 meg of RAM in a case the size of a TRS-80 Pocket Computer. :-) >other side. For one thing, you'd find that most of the PD software that gets >posted is BINARY. Now look at the Amiga groups, mostly SOURCE. To me that's >a big advantage (I bought it so I could program it, not so it could program >me). To you perhaps that's a disadvantage (whine, whine, I don't want to >pay $$$ for a compiler). Sure you could wait for the A2000, but then again, Although it certainly wouldn't hurt to post both source and binary. Source for the hackers, binary for the users. That way everyone is happy. David -- David P. Zimmerman "Unix RULES!!!" - anonymous Arpa: dpz@topaz.rutgers.edu Uucp: ...{allegra | harvard | seismo | sri-iu | ut-sally}!topaz!dpz
hadeishi@h-sc4.harvard.edu (mitsuharu hadeishi) (09/22/86)
Someone requested a review-comparison of the //GS and the Amiga. I've read the press release from Apple about the //GS so this is pretty reliable information, but it's all coming from memory. The //GS has a 65C816 microprocessor (designed by Western Digital). This is an internal 16-bit microprocessor with an 8-bit data path. The processor is a bit of a kludge, and it includes "mode bits" to switch between 8- and 16-bit modes. The //GS implements a 16 megabyte address space, and runs the 65C816 at a speed of 2.8 Mhz, about three times that of a regular //e. The 65C816 is code compatible with the 65C02. Apple says about 90% of //e software will run unaltered on a //GS. The //GS comes with 256K RAM standard, expandable to 1 Meg without using up slots, and up to 1 Meg per slot, for a maximum of 8 Meg RAM. The //GS supports all //e graphics modes, and adds two extra high-quality RGB modes: 320x200 in 16 colors per scan line and 640x200 in "4-16 colors per scan line." I suspect the latter really means "4 colors per scan line unless you use some weird tricks," since another press release simply says "4 colors per scan line" in that mode, but I don't know for sure. This means that the graphics modes are comparable to a color Atari ST, and are much less flexible than the Amiga graphics modes (for those of you who don't know, that's 320x200 and 320x400 in 32 colors, 640x200 and 640x400 in 16 colors, and you can change palettes and modes after any scan line, right in the middle of the screen. The Amiga also supports a 6-bit plane mode that can do a VERY good job of simulating 12 bit planes at 320x200 and 320x400 resolutions, producing near-broadcast-quality color images. If you've seen the latest version of the Digi-View software, you know what I mean; the latest version uses image processing techniques to eliminate the ragged edges that sometimes crop up in this mode. This mode is called HAM mode, and supports 4,096 colors on-screen at once. This mode has no counterpart on the //GS or ST.) Both the Amiga and the //GS use a color palette of 4,096 colors but the //GS is restricted to 512 colors on the screen at any given time (in addition to the scan line restrictions). I should point out that these modes could be easily achieved on a stock Amiga 1000 (using raster interrupts), and the Amiga graphics are significantly faster due to the existence of a hardware graphics chip (blitter) and a 16/32 bit microprocessor running at 7.1 Mhz. In sound is where the //GS excels. It has an Ensoniq sound chip, which is a full 16-bit digital sampling synthesizer, and it supports both playback and record at high speed (the sample rate was not mentioned in the press release). The chip has 64K of dedicated memory (this is a very small amount of memory, however, for 16-bit samples; approximately 1 second of high-speed (CD quality) 16-bit sound could be recorded in 64K of memory.) The chip has 32 oscillators and is capable of producing 15 simultaneous voices. I do not know if the chip is capable of addressing ore than 64K of memory; one would hope so, since 64K is a VERY small amount of memory to work with if you are doing digitally sampled sound. The Amiga has a custom sound sampler which is capable of playing 8-bit samples at a rate of up to 24 KHz, in up to four voices with separate 6-bit volume controls (producing a pseudo-14-bit maximum resolution in each voice.) This is not nearly as good as the Ensoniq chip, but the Amiga sound chips have 512K address space, and are approximately equivalent to some of the cheaper sampling synthesizers on the market (the Emulator, for example, is also an 8-bit sampler). I've heard samples played on the Amiga and it sounds surprisingly good for sounds that do not have a large number of high-frequency harmonics; presumably the Ensoniq chip can handle high harmonics much better (but limited to 64K RAM?) The Amiga sound is good for hobbyists, and the Ensoniq is near-professional-quality. Here the //GS is clearly the leader. The //GS comes with 128K of ROM expandable to 1 Meg, including a version of QuickDraw sometimes referred to as QuickDraw II. This should make writing graphics programs much easier before. I do not know if QuickDraw II supports the older graphics modes; I suspect it is limited (rightly so) to the new graphics modes. There are various small points; the //GS has a new thing called the "Apple Desktop Bus" which allows you to daisychain input peripherals, up to 16 devices I believe, which hang off of the same connector. The keyboard and mouse are connected to this bus, although the mouse must always be at the end of the daisychain. This allows lightpens, graphics tablets, et cetera to all be connected simultaneously in a clean fashion to the computer. The Amiga has two mouse/joystick ports, and as far as I've seen graphics tablets tend to be daisychained off of the parallel port. Lightpens may be connected to the Amiga's mouse ports as well. But now for the weird news: a color //GS system will cost MORE THAN A Mac 512E!!! Yes, the 256K box plus RGB monitor plus one 3 1/2" disk drive will retail for $1900!! This is as compared to the retail of $2000 for a similar Amiga configuration and a street price of $1300 for that same configuration (with 512K RAM). There is no way you are going to get the //GS for less than $1500 for that configuration, which means the //GS will ALSO cost MORE THAN AN AMIGA. The Amiga, however, has more flexible graphics modes, a MUCH faster processor, a MUCH more sophisticated multitasking windowing operating system, and MUCH faster animated graphics. The //GS has compatibility as its main selling point, and that may be a pretty big selling point to some people. The unbundled prices are as follows: //GS system unit with 256K is $1000, composite color is $300, RGB analog color is $500, 3 1/2" 800K disk drive is $400, 5 1/4" 140K disk drive is $300. And again, the retail for a Mac 512E is now $1700. Curiouser and curiouser . . . ? Or is it . . . ? I thought about this strange high price for awhile before I remembered that there is another, much more interesting, product at the moment, also released by Apple: The //e GS UPGRADE CARD. This card is a mere $500, and with it you get 3X speed improvement, RGB colors, fantastic sound, and 256K RAM. There are 2 million or so //e owners out there, and I suspect a large fraction of those will choose to buy the upgrade. There are several good things about this, for everybody: first of all the software developers will be encouraged to develop for the machine because so many people will have //GS compatible machines. Users are happy because at the LEAST they get a 3X speed improvement (and even Appleworks users will find that useful, and though you can get acceleration elsewhere, getting all that extra capability to boot might convince them to buy this card with the excuse that it speeds up Appleworks.) At the MOST they get a whole new world of color computing (and Apple is supporting a new Mac-like user interface called "Human Interface" or something like that) and whiz-bang color software. Amiga owners and developers would benefit at least to some degree because more attention would be focussed on the whole realm of new color computers, and comparisons between machines would start to fly, meaning the Amiga will get more attention, since it is clear the //GS is being positioned to compete with the ST and the Amiga. The Amiga might well sell MORE machines as a result, and Apple still has the vast market for its //GS upgrade cards and supporting hardware (RGB monitors, 3 1/2" disk drives) and software. So perhaps everyone can win (and IBM can lose, yay!) -Mitsu (hadeishi@h-sc4.UUCP)