[net.micro.amiga] HELP. PAL Amiga is available ??

zabot@cesare.dec.com (Adv.Tech.Mgr-ACT Torino) (09/23/86)

-- for line eater only --

Subj:   PAL vs NTSC.
   HELP !! Don't blame your dealer till you've tried Commodore Italy !

   Amiga is available in Italy since last June, but no one knows what system 
they are selling. There is a big mess concerning what TV standard is used for
both composite video and RGB outputs. Commodore Italy has not made any official 
statement on the subject and has refused to take any commitment on delivery
of PAL Amiga's ( or the plural you like most) or modification of present 
systems as soon as PAL systems will be availbale.

   These are the unofficial statements made by Commodore Italy on what they are 
presently selling:
1) These are already Pal systems
2) Yes, they are PAL but Brasilian PAL ( ??!!!! Does anyone know what it 
                                         means ?)
3) Yes, they are NTSC but will become PAL wher KickStart 1.2 will be available
4) NO! PAL systems will be available shortly and will require Kickstart 1.2.
   Present systems require a CHIP swap. We will charge it, don't know how 
   much!
5) ...

   Does anyone have an idea of the sistuation, generally speaking ?? 
   Better, someone has the address of a REAL dealer in southern GERMANY 
I can contact to buy my AMIGA. 

To Commodore ears:
To sell more AMIGAs you must, first of all, made them available.

To AMIGAers :
Help me ! I'm fed up of going to bed every night at 10. I too deserve by 
reddish eyes and long tiring nights blaming the software, the documentation
and so on....

marco.

dale@amiga.UUCP (Dale Luck) (09/24/86)

Although I can't say anything about the availability of the Palamiga in
Italy. I can shed some technical light.
The PAL amigas require a different agnus chip. The NTSC agnus is #8361.
The Pal agnus is #8367.  The Palamiga can run with both 1.1 and 1.2
however you only get the extra 56 lines by using 1.2.
When I was at Siggraph one Italian engineer asked me about this. He said
he had a Pal Amiga but didn't know how to get the extra resolution.
I slipped him a 1.2 beta kickstart and told him that should fix it, but
to not distribute it because it was only a beta release and there were still
some bugs.

Dale

stever@videovax.UUCP (Steven E. Rice) (09/25/86)

In article <5489@decwrl.DEC.COM>, zabot@cesare.dec.com writes:

> 2) Yes, they are PAL but Brasilian PAL ( ??!!!! Does anyone know what it 
>                                          means ?)

The PAL-M system is used in Brazil.  PAL-M has the following characteristics:

  1. 525 lines per frame, with luminance signal compatible with System M
     (the standard used in the United States and Japan).

  2. 30 frames per second.

  3. 2:1 interlace.

  4. Chrominance signal patterned after the European PAL system, but
     a color subcarrier very close to the US subcarrier (3,579,545 MHz)
     and no 25-Hz offset added in.

PAL-M is completely incompatible with European PAL.  Brazilian color
broadcasts could be received in black-and-white by an NTSC receiver and
vice versa, if the channel assignments were the same.

					Steve Rice

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porter@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Jeff Porter) (09/26/86)

In article <5489@decwrl.DEC.COM> zabot@cesare.dec.com (Adv.Tech.Mgr-ACT Torino) writes:

>Subj:   PAL vs NTSC.
>   Amiga is available in Italy since last June, but no one knows what system 
>they are selling. There is a big mess concerning what TV standard is used for
>both composite video and RGB outputs. Commodore Italy has not made any official 
>statement on the subject and has refused to take any commitment on delivery
>of PAL Amiga's ( or the plural you like most) or modification of present 
>systems as soon as PAL systems will be availbale.

All of the Amigas currently in Europe have NTSC PC boards with PAL AGNUS 
chips in them.  This means that the RGB ANALOG signals (which come directly 
from AGNUS) are PAL but the COMPOSITE VIDEO is still gives NTSC color
burst.  They also come with 220/240 volt power supplies and a 50Hz
kickstart disk (so that the real time clock gives the correct time).

The system is bundled in Europe with a Ram Expansion and RGB monitor,
so as far as RGB is concerned, this is identical to PAL PC boards with
PAL AGNUS chips.  Also, when 1.2 is released, a simple software upgrade
will allow you to use the extra resolution of the PAL system.  This
means that you get 640x256 instead of 640x200 and you get 640x512
instead of 640x400!!!  I personally find it kind of useful to have a
CLI window in the lower 56/112 lines, and my application in the top
200/400.

Also when 1.2 is released, it will support different keymaps for
German, Italy, France/Belgium, Sweden/Finland, Denmark, Switzerland,
Norway, Iceland, and French Canadian.  This is when different keyboards
will become available, the first countries being Germany, France and
Italy.  The others will follow later.  Concurrent with this
introduction,  will be the NEW PC board that is either PAL or NTSC
composite video (already set up for PAL COMPOSITE for Europe).

As it turns out, Brazil has a COMPOSITE video signal with PAL syncs
and NTSC color burst.  This is what the first Amigas in Europe have.
LET ME REPEAT, however, AS FAR AS RGB IS CONCERNED, THERE IS NO
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST UNITS AND THE LATER UNITS.

We are working as fast as possible to make 1.2 available.  We have a
final version now, but it is still being tested.  Numerous Beta copies
should be available from Commodore Italy, but PLEASE remember that
use of this disk is at your own risk.  It still has bugs.

>   Better, someone has the address of a REAL dealer in southern GERMANY 
>I can contact to buy my AMIGA. 
>
Commodore Bueromaschinen GmbH
Lyoner Strasse 38
6000 Frankfurt/M. 71
Contact: Walter Schmitz
Phone: 011-49-69-6638-0

Commodore Italiana S.p.A
Sede: Via F.lli Gracchi, 48
20092 Cinisello Balsamo (Milano)
Contact: Rinaldo Farina
Phone (02) 618321

Hope this helps,
Jeff Porter
Commodore Engineering Headquarters
West Chester, PA

wagner@utcs.UUCP (09/27/86)

Since we're on the topic of European Amigas, I have a slightly different
question.  I plan to take my Amiga with me to Europe for a year.
What do I have to do?

I understand that I have to transform the 220V to 110V.  I know enough
about electricity and electronics to find a suitable step-down
transformer.  Now, about the rest....

50 vs 60 cycle:  I know the amiga clock follows the line frequency.
		I also know that European Amigas just load a different
calibration value into a counter somewhere, so presumably I could get that
code (where, and from whom?).  Is anything else in a North American Amiga
sensitive to line frequency?

The monitor:  If I take my own RGB monitor (the one that came with the
		Amiga) to europe, I can run my system on North American
video (I assume).  Does that monitor have any dependencies on 50Hz?
Am I going to experience 'worms'?

Modems:  I know 300 baud modems are different in Europe.  Does anyone know
	 about 1200 baud modems?

Any other gotcha's I should think about?  (what do I do about service for
the beast when I'm there...shudder!).

Any thoughts welcome.  I will summarize if there is sufficient interest.

Michael Wagner (wagner@utcs or utzoo!utcs!wagner)

grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/29/86)

In article <1986Sep27.134930.15697@utcs.uucp>  wagner@utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner) writes:
> 
> Since we're on the topic of European Amigas, I have a slightly different
> question.  I plan to take my Amiga with me to Europe for a year.
> 
> 50 vs 60 cycle:  I know the amiga clock follows the line frequency.
> 		I also know that European Amigas just load a different
> calibration value into a counter somewhere, so presumably I could get that
> code (where, and from whom?).  Is anything else in a North American Amiga
> sensitive to line frequency?

I'm not sure whether the clock now auto-senses what the line frequency is,
but it's not big deal.  Everything else should work correctly.  If you are
really up-tight about the clock, you can pop out the contact for the 'tick'
signal and clip-lead the 'tick' pin to the vertical sync pin on the RGB
connector.

> The monitor:  If I take my own RGB monitor (the one that came with the
> 		Amiga) to europe, I can run my system on North American
> video (I assume).  Does that monitor have any dependencies on 50Hz?
> Am I going to experience 'worms'?

It will probably work without difficulty.  Color monitors generally have good
enough power supplies that they are not overly sensitive to line frequency
variances.  You may, however, perceive some minor distortion, flickering or
flashing.
 
> Modems:  I know 300 baud modems are different in Europe.  Does anyone know
> 	 about 1200 baud modems?

Modems are a problem - in Europe you must obtain your modem from the Government
Post and Telegraph authority.  Check with people where you are planning to visit
for details.

> Any other gotcha's I should think about?  (what do I do about service for
> the beast when I'm there...shudder!).

Any European Amiga dealer should be able to service your machine, allowing a
little creativity for differences.
-- 
George Robbins - now working for,	uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing	arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
Commodore, Engineering Department	fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

stever@videovax.UUCP (Steven E. Rice, P.E.) (10/01/86)

In article <786@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, Jeff Porter (porter@cbmvax.UUCP)
writes:

> As it turns out, Brazil has a COMPOSITE video signal with PAL syncs
> and NTSC color burst.  This is what the first Amigas in Europe have.
> . . .

Whoa!!!!!  Brazil uses PAL-M, which is 525 lines per frame, 30 frames per
second, 2:1 interlace (60 fields per second), with a nominal luminance
bandwidth of 4.2 MHz.  The monochrome PAL-M signal is identical with a
monochrome NTSC signal (this includes sync. . .).  And, of course, if
the monochrome PAL-M signal is compatible with NTSC, it is (by definition)
incompatible with European PAL!

The chrominance (color) component of a PAL-M signal is similar, but not
identical, to the various European versions of PAL.  One difference is
that the PAL-M chrominance subcarrier frequency is 3.57561149 MHz, while
the various European PAL standards use a 4.43361875 MHz subcarrier.
Another difference is that European PAL has a 25 Hz subcarrier offset
that causes the reference chrominance phase to rotate through 360 degrees
in each frame.  PAL-M has no such offset.

If the Amigas being sold in Europe really do conform to the Brazilian
standard (PAL-M), they are totally incompatible with European television
sets.  I hope this is not the case. . .

					Steve Rice

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grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (10/03/86)

In article <1969@videovax.UUCP> stever@videovax.UUCP (Steven E. Rice, P.E.) writes:
>In article <786@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, Jeff Porter (porter@cbmvax.UUCP)
>writes:
>
>> As it turns out, Brazil has a COMPOSITE video signal with PAL syncs
>> and NTSC color burst.  This is what the first Amigas in Europe have.
>> . . .
>
...technical details omitted...
>
>If the Amigas being sold in Europe really do conform to the Brazilian
>standard (PAL-M), they are totally incompatible with European television
>sets.  I hope this is not the case. . .
>
>					Steve Rice

You must have missed the original posting.  It is acknowldeged that the first
Amiga's shipped to Europe *DO NOT* generate a useful composite video signal.
They are being sold as RGB only systems bundled with monitors.

It is an unintentional coincidence that the 'composite' signal that they do
emit bears a superficial resemblance to the Brazilian PAL standard.  This
apparently contributed to some of the confusion exhibited by an Italian
Amiga dealership.

As an amusing note, Commodore *has* manufactered C64's that do conform to
the Brazilian PAL-M standard.  A curse on the excessive number of color
video standards.  These things are often discussed over on net.video...
-- 
George Robbins - now working for,	uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing	arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
Commodore, Engineering Department	fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

stever@videovax.UUCP (Steven E. Rice, P.E.) (10/10/86)

In article <827@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, George Robbins (grr@cbmvax.UUCP)
writes:

> You must have missed the original posting.  It is acknowldeged that the first
> Amiga's shipped to Europe *DO NOT* generate a useful composite video signal.
> They are being sold as RGB only systems bundled with monitors.
>
> It is an unintentional coincidence that the 'composite' signal that they do
> emit bears a superficial resemblance to the Brazilian PAL standard.  This
> apparently contributed to some of the confusion exhibited by an Italian
> Amiga dealership.

I'm glad to hear that it was confusion!

> As an amusing note, Commodore *has* manufactered C64's that do conform to
> the Brazilian PAL-M standard.  A curse on the excessive number of color
> video standards.  These things are often discussed over on net.video...

Here at the Television Division of Tektronix, Inc. we do more than discuss
such things!  We build generators, monitors, processors and measurement
equipment for many of the world's television standards.  Because of the
wide variety of standards (which often reflect national and/or regional
pride), it is very important to get the details right. . .

					Steve Rice

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