banks@viking.dec.com (Dawn Banks) (09/09/86)
~r}}ixxxxi~r~ri <- Eat dirt, lineeater!
In regard to the flaming surrounding the upcoming sidecar, I thought I'd
squirt a little lighter fluid over the coals.
In particular, I'm left wondering whether the folks at CA are getting out
of the useful computer business, or just starting subsidiaries in the 1BM PC
clone and office furniture businesses. A month or so ago, I got to see a
sidecar, and ask some questions about it. The person I was talking to was
either a CA representative, or some distributor of CA equipment.
Me: Looks neat. I want a hard disk on my machine for less than the Amiga
costs. Will this help me?
Him: Sure. You can put any off the shelf hard-card into it, and it'll work
fine.
Me: Can I access it from the Amiga, or just the 8088.
Him: No. Well, yes you can. I mean, you partition the disk between the 8088
and the Amiga.
Me: What if I want the whole disk to be dedicated to the Amiga?
Him: Can't do that. Anyway, you gotta get the whole 8088 system with the
sidecar.
Me: (stupidly realizing for the first time that the sidecar isn't the SCSI
interface I was looking for). Ok, look: All I want is a cheap SCSI
interface so I can put cheap SCSI disks on the machine.
Him: Well, you can do that with the Sidecar.
Me: What if I don't want to pay for the 8088 system? What if I just want
a SCSI interface and nothing else?
Him: You're out of luck. We're just interested in getting this Sidecar to
market.
Me: If I were interested in a PC clone, don't you think I'd have bought one
in the first place? It sounds like you guys are getting out of the Amiga
business, and into the PC clone business. Only problem is, that all I'm
interested in is an Amiga, and not a PC clone. What are you guys going
to do with the Amiga?
Him: Excuse me, I gotta talk to someone else.
So, youse guys at Commodore Amiga, what's the deal? Are we in the Amiga
business, or the PC clone business. The Sidecar is a neat hack, but if you
were serious about selling PC alternatives (like Amigas), you'd be introducing
products that make the Amiga a nicer machine to work on, rather than making
it a front end for yor competitor's architecture. In the mean time, the only
reasonable hard disk alternatives we've seen cost as much or more than the
Amiga does in the first place. It wouldn't be so bad if that were the going
rate for hard disks, but from what I've seen on the market, it's highway
robbery.
{disclaimer}
(DEC E-NET) Viking::Banks
(UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-Viking!Banks
(ARPA) Banks%Viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPAcmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) (09/10/86)
It is not so suprising that the Sidecar looks like a PC Clone because
it is! RJ Mical, who wrote the software for it, said it was an
adaptation of the PC-10 IBM PC Clone that Commodore is very succesfully
selling in Europe.
As for hard disks on the Amiga, the MicroBotics one is really nice.
It plugs into the parallel port (but you don't lose the parallel
port because the disk unit has one that operates just like the
Amiga's) it is a 20 Megabyte unit, and has a full SCSI bus
coming out the back of it. Unfortunately the parallel/SCSI conversion
is built into the Drive unit so you can't just order the SCSI
adapter but at $1500 it is less than say the Mac people have been
paying for 20 Meg drives. The nicest thing though are that it is
small and quiet. Not much bigger than the 3.5" external drive and
no noisy fan. Multiple drives can be daisy chained for additional
storage or you can use your own drive / adapter. It does require
V1.2 however so don't look for shipments until 1.2 ships, maybe
we will know when that is after the Developers conference.
Personally, I seriously doubt there will be really cheap hard disks
for the amiga until their is a really cheap SCSI board. Maybe the
guys at Allegra can pull it off.
--
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/10/86)
In article <5242@decwrl.DEC.COM> banks@viking.dec.com (Dawn Banks) writes: > >So, youse guys at Commodore Amiga, what's the deal? Are we in the Amiga >business, or the PC clone business. The Sidecar is a neat hack, but if you >were serious about selling PC alternatives (like Amigas), you'd be introducing >products that make the Amiga a nicer machine to work on, rather than making >it a front end for yor competitor's architecture. In the mean time, the only >reasonable hard disk alternatives we've seen cost as much or more than the >Amiga does in the first place. It wouldn't be so bad if that were the going >rate for hard disks, but from what I've seen on the market, it's highway >robbery. > >(UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-Viking!Banks If you look at the organization of the Sidecar, it is a PC that interfaces to the Amiga via a dual-port RAM. This addresses the dissapointing performance of the Transformer software, and provides 'MS DOS in a an Amiga window' with considerable software transparency. Having the 5.25 floppy controlled by the 8088 thru a NEC disk controller avoids 99% of the copy protection problems the would be encountered trying to emulate a drive. Now it just happens that the provided software allows Amiga to access a partition of the Hard Drive on the PC side of things, as if it were a native Amiga disk. There are other resource sharing options, but I'm not 100% up on them. So is the Sidecar what you want? If you don't give a fig for PC compatiblity, then perhaps not. If you want a hard disk, and don't mind the rest, perhaps yes. Why no cheap 'Amiga Hard Disk' from Commodore/Amiga? Good question. C/A has opened the doors for third parties on things like memory expansion, expansion boxes and disks. Hopefully, a lot of the products we've all heard about will arrive for Christmas? ad on the PC side/MS DOS hard drive. at -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
richr@pogo.UUCP (Rich Rodgers) (09/12/86)
In article <7091@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) writes: > >adapter but at $1500 it is less than say the Mac people have been > >Personally, I seriously doubt there will be really cheap hard disks >for the amiga until their is a really cheap SCSI board. Maybe the >guys at Allegra can pull it off. > Boy, we get no respect. My company is currently working on exactly what you are asking for to be manufactured by C Ltd. (formerly CardCo). What it is is a SCSI card that attaches to the side of the Amiga (AND PASSES THE BUS!!!), a SCSI controller - hard disk - power-supply combination all for retail of $995. As with all C Ltd. products you will only be able to buy it from your local dealer. It should be available in quantity in 6 to 8 weeks. If pressured the folks at C Ltd. will probably offer the SCSI board alone for a semi-reasonable cost. The board will also be available in a ZORRO board version to be shipped shortly after the C Ltd. Expansion Box ships. Once again... Richard N. Rodgers C Ltd. Creative Microsystems Inc. 723 E. Skinner 9140 SW Locust Street Wichita, Kansas 67213 Tigard, OR 97223
waynekn@tekig5.UUCP (Wayne Knapp) (09/12/86)
In article <5242@decwrl.DEC.COM>, banks@viking.dec.com (Dawn Banks) writes: > > So, youse guys at Commodore Amiga, what's the deal? Are we in the Amiga > business, or the PC clone business. The Sidecar is a neat hack, but if you > were serious about selling PC alternatives (like Amigas), you'd be introducing > products that make the Amiga a nicer machine to work on, rather than making > it a front end for yor competitor's architecture. In the mean time, the only > reasonable hard disk alternatives we've seen cost as much or more than the > Amiga does in the first place. It wouldn't be so bad if that were the going > rate for hard disks, but from what I've seen on the market, it's highway > robbery. > > {disclaimer} > > (DEC E-NET) Viking::Banks > (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-Viking!Banks > (ARPA) Banks%Viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPA I for one think the sidecard is a great idea. I have lots of IBM software that I want to use. I also enjoy my Amiga. Keep up the great work Commodore Amiga. Wayne Knapp
cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) (09/15/86)
Thanks Richard for the reply, for those of you whom this may be
new to this discussion, use your news program to find the
original. The meat of the messages have been my assertion :
*>Personally, I seriously doubt there will be really cheap hard disks
*>for the amiga until their is a really cheap SCSI board. Maybe the
*>guys at Allegra can pull it off.
And Richard's reply which included :
*> ... If pressured the folks at C Ltd. will probably offer the SCSI
*> board alone for a semi-reasonable cost...
This is what *must* be done for *cheap* hard disks to become available
now. You see it is like this, I can go to a swap meet here in the
valley and pick up a 10 or 20 Meg drive, SCSI adapter, enclosure and
power supply for less than $400. Now these may or may not be primo
parts but chances are good that they all work. If someone offered
the host adapter part for around $200 (after all it is only the
autoconfig PAL's the NCR chip and a decoder/latch for the easiest
implementation) I could have a hard disk for $600. That would be
cheap.
--
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.sjl@amdahl.UUCP (Steve Langdon) (09/16/86)
In article <2724@pogo.UUCP> richr@pogo.UUCP (Rich Rodgers) quotes article <7091@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) in which Chuck said: >... Unfortunately the parallel/SCSI conversion >is built into the Drive unit so you can't just order the SCSI >adapter but at $1500 it is less than say the Mac people have been >paying for 20 Meg drives. ... He then says: > Boy, we get no respect. > > My company is currently working on exactly what you are asking for to be > manufactured by C Ltd. (formerly CardCo). What it is is a SCSI card that > attaches to the side of the Amiga (AND PASSES THE BUS!!!), a SCSI controller - > hard disk - power-supply combination all for retail of $995. ... The Dataframe 20 SCSI disk next to my Mac cost $930 from Computer Attic in Palo Alto several months ago. I have not checked their current price, but Computer Ware of Palo Alto was asking $830 last week. In the current MacWorld, Jasmine Computer Systems of Mountain View wants $599 for their Seagate ST-225 based SCSI drive for the Mac. The price includes shipping. MacMemory sells an SCSI add on for older Macs for $99. I conclude Amiga hardware prices have a fair amount of room to fall. -- Steve Langdon ...!{decwrl,sun,hplabs,ihnp4,cbosgd}!amdahl!sjl +1 408 746 6970 [I speak for myself not others.]
king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) (11/10/86)
(0V0) Yessiree, Bob. We have the sidecar in Canada. I saw one at Comspec's Amiga birthday event last Saturday. It was running Microsoft's flight simulator on the Amiga monitor. They say that it will retail (here) for about $1k CDN. Somebody blew it up before I had a good chance to check it out, however. Apparently, there is some power connection that requires the sidecar to be powered down BEFORE the Amiga. Some bystander noticed that the system had crashed (for some unknown reason) and he turned off the Amiga power switch (!). The sidecar died, but the Amiga was OK after the sidecar was detached. I was told that it was advisable to tape over the Amiga power switch when using the sidecar, and use the sidecar power switch to control both units. I don't know when we'll see significant quantities of the sidecar, but I assume they will be arriving at the stores within a few weeks. Anyway, the thing has three IBM expansion slots; no Zorro slots. A 'hard card' could be installed and partitioned so that some percentage is available to each processor. (read 20MByte = 19MByte->Amiga + 1MByte->PC) 8*). ...sjk. (insert standard disclaimer)