gordon@sneaky (11/01/85)
It is true that news/notes software that limits names to 14 characters is obsolete. It is NOT true that software that wants names to be UNIQUE IN THE FIRST 14 CHARACTERS is obsolete. Unless something radical has been done to notes since it was posted to net.sources (and my current version is a little newer than that), the NEWEST version notes still insists that notesfile names be unique in the first 14 characters (unless you're running 4.2bsd, or its successors or clones). This insistence can be satisified by suitable use of the aliasing facility, but it requires cooperation of lots of sites to do it, and it's never been done before. (net.religion.christian is NOT a counterexample. It is unique in 14 characters from net.religion.jewish, etc. It wasn't unique in 14 characters from net.religion.ctl, but that wasn't a real newsgroup.) Tacking the chopped off end of the full name back on has been done before, but this is different. It requires cooperation on both sides of the link, and invention of a new naming convention for use only by the shortnames notes sites, one much different than "take the long name and chop it at 14 characters". The recent renaming of fa.* groups to mod.* groups causes a problem that notes can properly handle, if the notes sites will work together. Notes has aliasing facilities that can be used to resolve the naming problem. The new version of notes has this, and even moderately old versions do. Maybe even the really old versions do. In order for this to work, someone needs to post what all the new names are, preferably along with what the old name it is replacing was! Definitions: longnames site: one running (reasonably recent) news or one running 4.2bsd (or later) and notes, and thus can handle long names. shortnames site: a site running notes and v7, sysIII, sysV, 4.1bsd, or something else that can't handle long names. If you gate news into notes, and your os can't handle long names, you are a shortnames site, and you talk to a longnames site (news, even if it's just news on your own system). obsolete site: one running a version of news that won't handle long names, or running notes without an aliasing facility. I propose the following naming scheme be set up for shortnames notes sites only, to avoid putting several groups in one big notesfile: mod.computers -> mod.comp (does this exist?) mod.computers.* -> mod.comp.* mod.protocols -> mod.proto (does this exist?) mod.protocols.* -> mod.proto.* (Design considerations of this proposal: don't change anything that isn't ambiguous within the first 14 characters, even if the name isn't particularly clear because the last component gets chopped to one character. Rename the main group to keep it the main group of the renamed subgroups. mod.comp was suggested by a couple of people on the net.) I do not have a complete list of the new groups as created, so these examples aren't going to be complete. Does someone have a complete list? If you are an obsolete site, UPGRADE! If you are a longnames site, and talk only to other longnames sites, do nothing. (This includes all you news sites, remember, so don't flame me yet). If you are a shortnames site, and talk only to other shortnames sites, do nothing, but be prepared for receiving new notesfiles with the new names if anyone pays any attention to this proposal. If you are a longnames site, and talk to shortname sites, insert in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/net.aliases/<site> file (where site is each shortnames notes site): mod.computers:mod.comp mod.computers.vax:mod.comp.vax mod.computers.sun:mod.comp.sun mod.computers.laser-printers:mod.comp.laser mod.protocols:mod.proto mod.protocols.tcp-ip:mod.proto.tcp-ip mod.protocols.kermit:mod.proto.kermit ... etc ... (If you put something that goes over 14 characters on the right side, the shortnames site will chop it, so you don't have to bother chopping it yourself.) If you are a shortnames site, and you talk to longnames sites, insert in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/net.aliases/<site> file (where site is each longnames notes site) mod.comp:mod.computers mod.comp.vax:mod.computers.vax mod.comp.sun:mod.computers.sun mod.comp.laser:mod.computers.laser-printers mod.proto:mod.protocols mod.proto.tcp-:mod.protocols.tcp-ip mod.proto.kerm:mod.protocols.kermit ... etc ... You should already have lines in there for groups whose true names go over 14 characters, like net.announce.n:net.announce.newusers net.unix-wizar:net.unix-wizards net.religion.c:net.religion.christian net.religion.j:net.religion.jewish ... etc ... so that local submissions to those groups are sent back to the group they came from on the longnames site. Note that even some of my proposed new names run over 14 characters, but they are all unique in the first 14. Shortnames sites need to use the chopped name for entries corresponding to the local notesfile name of the group. Also, if you are a shortnames site and gate notes to news or news to notes, insert the same lines in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/newsgroups file. Gordon Burditt ...!convex!ctvax!trsvax!sneaky!gordon ...!microsoft!trsvax!sneaky!gordon
tp@ndm20 (11/04/85)
Are you sure that a shortname site must use the alias feature on any
name that is longer than 14 characters? I don't use the alias
feature at all. I am a shortname site connected to a longname site.
As long as I pass all the notes utilities the long name, all works
well. I think that your proposal is correct except that there is no
reason to avoid mod.proto.kermit:mod.protocols.kermit in the
shortname site's alias file, and no need whatsoever to put in an
alias for things like net.religion.christian.
Your proposal is good, but such hassles should not be neccessary.
Since all non-4.2 notes sites have this problem, ALL GROUP NAMES
SHOULD BE UNIQUE IN THE FIRST 14 CHARACTERS. There is no reason for
not doing this. Mr. Fair has unilateraly decided to do it, despite
response before and after in net.news.group that the names should be
shortened. His only response so far is upgrade or tough luck. He
has decided that it is acceptable (to him) to force all non-4.2 notes
administrators to go through the hassles of maintaining alias files,
a hassle that they have never had to worry about before. This is an
ongoing concern. It is a safe bet that future names invented by him
will have a similar lack of concern for the rest of the net.
The proper solution is to RENAME THE DAMNED GROUPS. That is the only
solution that makes sense. Besides, if a shortname site with a
redundant feed refuses to hassle with the alias files, the groups
will cross-pollenate, so to speak.
Terry Poot
Nathan D. Maier Consulting Engineers
(214)739-4741
Usenet: ...!{allegra|ihnp4}!convex!smu!ndm20!tp
CSNET: ndm20!tp@smu
ARPA: ndm20!tp%smu@csnet-relay.ARPAgordon@sneaky (11/06/85)
/* Written 7:27 am Nov 4, 1985 by ndm20!tp in sneaky:net.news.notes */ Are you sure that a shortname site must use the alias feature on any name that is longer than 14 characters? I don't use the alias feature at all. I am a shortname site connected to a longname site. As long as I pass all the notes utilities the long name, all works well. ... Terry Poot Nathan D. Maier Consulting Engineers ... /* End of text from sneaky:net.news.notes */ You are correct that it is possible to get around using the alias feature on names that are simply chopped at 14 characters. However, this seems to me to cause more hassle than maintaining the alias file. If you feed nfxmit a list of notes groups with the full names to send anything, you have to edit the file every time a new group is created with any length name. If I feed nfxmit wildcards like net.*, then I have to edit my alias file every time a new group longer than 14 characters is created. (Of course, by the time Eric Fair gets finished, neither file will fit on a single disk drive. When are you going to come up with single names longer than 64k, Eric?) If maintaining a complete list of all groups works for you, fine, but it's not the way lots of administrators do it. The aliases don't break your method and it makes other methods work right. Do you allow your longnames connection to request your system to send it stuff with remote execution of nfxmit? Does your connection know it can't use wildcards in such requests? I agree with your point that the solution is to rename the groups. The proper procedures weren't followed, either, and I have yet to see a list of the names of all 18 or whatever atrocities that were created. When is someone going to post a list of the $^%#$^%#^$% things? If I could figure out a procedure that would deliberately "cross-pollinate" every one of Eric's groups into every other one of Eric's groups on both the news and notes side of things, I'd be tempted to post it. Unfortunately, everything I can think of just screws the notes users. Also, it annoys people who are already overly but justifiably annoyed with stupid group names, so I'm not going to. Gordon Burditt ...!convex!ctvax!trsvax!sneaky!gordon
essick@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (11/08/85)
i just received a letter from someone (i believe it was in oklahoma)
that was interested in what hooks were in notes to use the news-style
directory structure. In news, the group "mod.computers.sequent"
is stored in the directory "mod/computers/sequent". [prefix
all these names with /usr/spool/news or whatever].
anyway, all the necessary hooks have been in the notes code for
a year or two now. the reasons that i don't store things that way
include:
1. it complicates the wildcard matching.
right now, when i say "notes 'net.unix*'" it
reads from a pipe that does "cd /usr/spool/notes; echo net.unix*"
works real well and is dead easy to code.
2. i've got 4.2 boxes and thus won't have to worry about the problem
until we hit the 256 character region.
3. rumor has it that i'm supposed to be working on a thesis.
the second reason is hardly gratifying to the shortname people.
i think that the fixes came down to 3-4 routines -- the ones that
open a notesfile, check a notesfile name for legality, and
[the kicker] the one that will do your wildcard matching.
If someone really wants to get into this, send me a letter and
i'll describe what i think needs to be done in more detail.
-- Ray Essick, University of Illinois
-- essick@b.cs.uiuc.edu, {ihnp4,cmcl2,seismo,convex}!uiucdcs!essicktp@ndm20 (11/09/85)
Hmm... I don't have any of the problems you allude to. I do use wild-cards, and
my notes get to my feed in long-name form, because notes, not the shell,
expands the wild-cards. I do have a problem occasionally in that there are
rogue groups on the long names site with chopped shortnames style names. I
guess they came from elsewhere. I am running notes 1.7. There may be problems
with old sites of which I am not aware.
I can tell you how to cross pollinate those groups if you are interested. I
just had to install an alias file to prevent it from happening. If two other
sites around here don't install alias files real soon, there will be some
cross pollination. I was tempted to just let it happen, but the readers of
those lists are the victims, not Fair. This happened because I picked up a
redundant feed. Any shortname site with 2 feeds, where each leads eventually to
a longname site before being gatewayed back to news will cause the cross-
pollination if no alias files are used. It is that simple, and I and one of
my feeds both qualify to do it.
Terry Poot
Nathan D. Maier Consulting Engineers
(214)739-4741
Usenet: ...!{allegra|ihnp4}!convex!smu!ndm20!tp
CSNET: ndm20!tp@smu
ARPA: ndm20!tp%smu@csnet-relay.ARPAmep@mb2c.UUCP (Mike Plunkett) (11/13/85)
> > i just received a letter from someone (i believe it was in oklahoma) > that was interested in what hooks were in notes to use the news-style > directory structure. In news, the group "mod.computers.sequent" > is stored in the directory "mod/computers/sequent". [prefix > all these names with /usr/spool/news or whatever]. > > anyway, all the necessary hooks have been in the notes code for > a year or two now. the reasons that i don't store things that way > include: > > 1. it complicates the wildcard matching. > right now, when i say "notes 'net.unix*'" it > reads from a pipe that does "cd /usr/spool/notes; echo net.unix*" > works real well and is dead easy to code. > 2. i've got 4.2 boxes and thus won't have to worry about the problem > until we hit the 256 character region. > 3. rumor has it that i'm supposed to be working on a thesis. > > the second reason is hardly gratifying to the shortname people. > > i think that the fixes came down to 3-4 routines -- the ones that > open a notesfile, check a notesfile name for legality, and > [the kicker] the one that will do your wildcard matching. > > If someone really wants to get into this, send me a letter and > i'll describe what i think needs to be done in more detail. > > -- Ray Essick, University of Illinois > -- essick@b.cs.uiuc.edu, {ihnp4,cmcl2,seismo,convex}!uiucdcs!essick *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** ?
fair@ucbarpa.BERKELEY.EDU (Erik E. &) (11/14/85)
As they say in Hollyweird, ``I don't care what you print about me, but SPELL MY NAME RIGHT!'' As for filling up your disks, I expect net.sources.mac and net.flame will do that adequately, given enough time. Erik E. Fair ucbvax!fair fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu
gordon@sneaky (11/18/85)
/* Written 10:27 pm Nov 7, 1985 by uiucdcsb!essick in sneaky:net.news.notes */
...
i think that the fixes came down to 3-4 routines -- the ones that
open a notesfile, check a notesfile name for legality, and
[the kicker] the one that will do your wildcard matching.
...
-- Ray Essick, University of Illinois
-- essick@b.cs.uiuc.edu, {ihnp4,cmcl2,seismo,convex}!uiucdcs!essick
/* End of text from sneaky:net.news.notes */
Surely there are some changes in notesfile creation and deletion!