jkh@jade.UUCP (05/28/86)
Article: 5:20
Though not about the Auto Ordinace, this question was posed in our local
firearms notes file, and I thought that the discussion would apply
to the 'minimum mods' questions as well as others.
Warning -- this is a *long* message!
[It is at that. Some interesting material in here tho. Why don't these
folks use the net? (what? too slow? Shhhhh!) ]
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Note 528.0 Springfield Armory .45 info 24 replies
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Just purchased a Springfield Armory .45. Been wanting a Colt
.45 for a long time but could never afford one. The price was right
($289.00) I guess that's what hooked me. Been looking at the Colts
over the years and they're all over $500.00 and the used ones aren't
cheap either. When I came across this Springfield, I was quite taken
by the price. I thought about it for a few days and the more I
thought...well, the rest is history.
I have a question about this Springfield Armory. I was told by a
fellow who came into the shop when I was buying this pistol, that
Springfield Armory was using all of the old Colt tooling to make
their .45's. Is this fellow correct in his statement? And if so
what are your feelings about Springfield Armory? I went back in the
files and read notes 66,81 and 522. I seem to read a lot about AMT
but not too much on the S.A. I bought the gun mostly for fun so I
don't really care to be driving tacks with it.
I did look at some of the Colts and they are nice, but something
just to bang around in the truck and mess around the combat course
I couldn't see spending that kind of money. The price of the Colt
seems to be on everybody's mind as I read these notes. Well, so much
for that.
Can someone out there fill me in on Springfield Armory? I haven't
heard much about them until I picked up this .45. Also, how is the
.45 to reload, what kind of primer, what powder and how much, what
bullet do you like to use?
Thanks in advance.
Bob
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Note 528.1 Springfield Armory .45 info 1 of 24
-< < check out these issues..> >-
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Look in last month's COMBAT hanguns for a complete review of the
Springfield armory. Also check out recent back issues of American
Hangunner. It has been my understanding that these guns were made
to the genuine 1911a1 DESIGN. I.e. the cut-me safety and the bite-me
hammer. (just kidding !) They did do new tooling however. These
guns are made to be compatible with old colt-design parts. They
are nice guns...
Good luck with it.
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Note 528.2 Springfield Armory .45 info 2 of 24
-< non-Colts and gunshops, and a load... >-
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Some of the large "Combat" shops (eg. Wilson Combat) won't work on
anything but Colts. This may be due snobbishness, kickbacks,
Cooperisim or some basis in observed quality -- I don't know.
Roak
For my load I use a Federal large pistol primer, 5.0 grains of Bullseye
behind a Hensley and Gibbs #68 bullet (Winchester case). This makes
major caliber for IPSC...
Yes, for those oldtimers around here, Roger, BRT fan from way back is
using a 'boat anchor' (as I called it a few months ago) for his major
IPSC gun!
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Note 528.3 Springfield Armory .45 info 3 of 24
-< GET G+A >-
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You're very timely here. The latest Guns and Ammo has a story
on the "new" Springfield Armory. The article dwells mostly on
the rifles they offer, but gives an historical account of how
the present owner resurrected the business. Might be worth your
while to pick up that issue, its presently on the news-stands,
has an Elmer Keith commemerative on the cover.
Plus it has a dandy article on Woodsmans (the reason I bought
it)........
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Note 528.4 Springfield Armory .45 info 4 of 24
-< some gunsmiths are snobs >-
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Yea, a few of the higher class (as they call themselves) gunsmiths will not
touch anything but a Colt. But for everyone of those there are a hundred
others who will, and you will get the gun back in a reasonable amount of time.
At the very least have a good trigger job done (about $50) and an accuracy
job (about $125-150) done by a local .45 gunsmith. You will be surprised how
much better it will shoot.
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Note 528.5 Springfield Armory .45 info 5 of 24
-< S.A. makes nice stuff... >-
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.45 ACP is a snap to reload! Plus the brass lasts forever.
(Honest, I've been reincarnated, and I'm using the brass from my
former life!)
If you just want to throw lead around, 230 gr round-nose lead bullets
are cheap to shoot, and easy on your barrel. I use 4.5 grs of Bullseye,
and Winchester large pistol primers. Start out about 10% lower on
the powder charge, just to be on the safe side, as pistols do vary
in strength and workmanship.
P.S. I own a Colt Gov. mod. in SS. I liked the S.A. .45, I would
have bought one, but there was a 6 month lead time at that point.
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Note 528.6 Springfield Armory .45 info 6 of 24
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RE:4
Only trouble with customizing a lower-priced .45, by the time
you are done, you have the price of a Gold cup in it. $289 for
the gun, $50 for a trigger job, $150 for accurizing......Then
you have a "non-Colt" with a lot of money in it and may have a
hard time getting your investment back should you need or want
to sell.
RE: LOADS (get it, reloads:-)
I agree that the round nose lead is a good plinking load. A good
source is American Bullets, cast harder than Speer. I've also used
Hornady lead bullets in .45 ACP (and others) and they work OK. Some
.45's can be fussy about semi-wadcutters, but if your gun will feed
them they are quite accurate with Bullseye and other good powders.
One thing that can't be stated enough times if one is to load ACP.
Buy a taper crimp die and make seating and crimping seperate
operations. In general, you will encounter better feeding especially
with lead bullets.
Course, the PMC (among others) hardball stuff is always fun too
when it can be had cheaply.
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Note 528.8 Springfield Armory .45 info 8 of 24
-< Just throat and polish... >-
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Bob came by my office, but I'll type in what I told him just to
get the information online here in the notes file...
I think the *minimum* that should be done to the gun is have the
barrel throated and the feed ramp polished. Gritty trigger, not
top-notch accuracy, etc. *can* be tolerated. A gun that jams cannot.
Ask me. Remember my ranting and raving about my Gold Cup? A gun
that jams alot is *worse* than a non-tack driver.
Understand that if it holds 10 inch groups at 25 yards, it does
need an accuracy job, but I think that the accuracy and trigger
job can wait if the person so descides. A throating and polishing
job runs about $20.
Before everyone jumps on me, remember, I'm talking *minimum* work,
here.
Ok, go for it, I'm ready...
And an afterthought -- I'd open up the ejection port next. Notice
I'm going for *reliability* before accuracy.
Roak
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Note 528.10 Springfield Armory .45 info 10 of 24
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I suppose mostly it depends on what the shooter intends
to do with said gun. For casual plunking or just "keeping
around", most anything will do (except a Llame :-). But
again, if you start putting even minor work into a non-Colt,
you are spending more money to acheive a good shooter. One
thought, how are the sights on the Springfield armory gun?
If they are like the later model Colt Gov't Models, they
can be lived with. If they are the old-style thin-blade jobs,
the sights should also be upgraded even for casual use if
you expect to hit much of anything.
I have had a few basic Colt Gov't models and had no problems
with feeding, therefore I didn't have to invest in gunsmithing
to have a decent shooter. Even the small amount of minimum
work previously mentioned adds up. $289 for the gun, $20 for
throating, $25 for ejection port=$334. Now I understand that
its a little more money but for example I just bought a used
Colt Combat Gov't model for $425. Its virtually new and they
come with decent fixed sights, beveled magazine well, opened-
up ejection port and a tolerable trigger pull. And if i ever
want to sell it, I expect to be able to recover my investment
(private sale of course, not a trade). Understand I am not
putting down anybodys new gun. I would, however, refrain from
spending money on a non-Colt unless it REALLY needs it. Shucks,
most people only blast tin cans and other dangerous game
anyway......
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Note 528.11 Springfield Armory .45 info 11 of 24
-< a Colt is not God's gift to shooters >-
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re: Note 528.6
> Only trouble with customizing a lower-priced .45, by the time
> you are done, you have the price of a Gold cup in it. $289 for
> the gun, $50 for a trigger job, $150 for accurizing.....
I have a Gold Cup that I use in NRA bullseye competition. Out of the box
it would barely hold the black at 25 yards and barely hold the target at
50 yards. The Gold Cup is just barely hand fitted, if at all, at the factory.
In fact, the job they do for the premium you pay for the "Gold Cup" name
is not worth it. If I had to do it all over again, I would buy the individual
parts (frame, slide, etc) then take the parts gun to a good gunsmith to have it
accurized. It will probably shoot better than any unaccurized Gold Cup and I
will have spent the same dollars.
> Then you have a "non-Colt" with a lot of money in it and may have a
> hard time getting your investment back should you need or want
> to sell.
I say hogwash to this. If you are reselling the gun to a shooter who wants
to hit the target consistently then you should play up the accurizing work
you had done to the gun. Its value should appreciate, not depreciate.
It look like you people believe that just because it says "Colt" it has to be
better. Horse manure.
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Note 528.12 Springfield Armory .45 info 12 of 24
-< Blah, Blah, Blah, Just talk. >-
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All the talk about putting money into a "non Colt" is just that. Talk.
If you are looking for an accurate reliable shooter just about anything other
than a Colt will be a wise investment.
Number one, the basic gun will be cheaper to buy, and number two, when it's
done you'll have a superb shooter capable of outstanding accuracy and
reliability for less money than a top of the line Colt that has also been
reworked.
See, even a Colt national match needs work as they come from the factory.
You may be able to get by for a season or two with a gold cup as it comes out
of the box, but sooner or later you'll need to tune it up.
Colt does not spend the time they used to on the gold cups anymore hence they
are not as "good" as they used to be. Plus, the series 80 safety crap is a
useless addition.
Granted, they are outstanding shooters right out of the box, but you can end
up with a gun that shoots circles around it with almost any other "government
model" on the market after throwing only minimal $$$ into it.
If you go the full route and get a full blown accuracy job on any government
model you will most assuredly be able to get most of your money back should
you decide to resell it. Especially if you retain the reciepts for whatever
work you had put into it.
There are championships being won all the time with Essex, Caspian,
Springfield Armory, Thompson, AMT, and a host of other govt. model copies.
There are also a whole slew of after market companies that cater to the
accuracy crowd and offer all kinds of goodies to enhance the accuracy of
these standard govt. models. Most of this stuff you can do yourself without
having to see a 'smith.
Hell, I got an Essex Arms govt. model I built that will out shoot any gold
cup you can show me!! Total cost? Less than $400.00
I am in the process of tuning an AMT that without sights on it yet, will hold
two inches at 25 yards. A new barrel would make it shoot better, but that's
another story.
I rebuilt an Argentinian Colt 45 that for $95.00 total investment towards
accuracy shoots better than most gold cups I've ever seen. I used military
surplus parts too, excluding the barrel bushing and adjustable trigger.
What I'm trying to say is don't sell the "copies" short. With minimal work
and investment you can get any of them to shoot as good or often times better
than any gold cup.
Colt is just a name. The copies available everywhere are just as good.
Corky
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Note 528.13 Springfield Armory .45 info 13 of 24
-< I disagree >-
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RE 11,12
Well, now I know how you guys feel I guess :-). Again, it
depends on the shooter and what he intends to do with the
gun. I'm talking Joe Average that wants a good out-of-the
-box shooter. You guys are talking competition guns that
not only take a constant pounding, but are competing against
guns built with no expense spared.
I would not be so foolish as to suggest a new Cup is going
to win Camp Perry. I'm talking about the amount one had to
spend on SOME model copies to get them to shoot as well as
the average Colt for the average shooter (thats me).
Also, Corky mentioned that "most of the needed modifications
can be performed without a 'smith". That may work for you
but I am not about to take my gun farther down than field
stripping for cleaning and I'll bet that most of the average
shooters will concur. Some guys have no business with files
and the like and I happen to be one of those. If I need/want
that type of thing done, I bring it somebody that can is
capable. And those guys get money for their work, and
rightfully so.
You guys are talking the difference between a pickup truck
and a race car. And I have yet to see a "stock" Essex or
whatever hold value like a "stock" Colt.
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Note 528.14 Springfield Armory .45 info 14 of 24
-< one more time >-
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Here we go again.
You are right, a "stock" Essex or whatever will not hold its value like
a "stock" Colt. But that is not the point. Did you buy it to shoot or for
an investment? Why pay big (over $400) bucks for a Colt Govt. that won't
shoot any better than the $289 S.A? The average Joe Plinker at least wants
to hit the target with some kind of regularity.
All you are paying for with a Colt is the NAME. A Colt Govt. shoots no
better out of the box than a S.A. or Essex or Crown City, etc.
It costs the same amount of $$ to make any model 1911A1 shoot good. So Why
pay an extra $150 or so for a name? Put that $150 into an accurizing job on
your S.A. and you will be better off in the long run.
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Note 528.15 Springfield Armory .45 info 15 of 24
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One more thing. I just called Springfield Armory. They are sooo backlogged
with orders for their 1911A1 that if I placed an order today I would not get it
until december. The gal there said that they can't fill the orders fast
enough and that she just filled the last of the september 1985 orders
yesterday.
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Note 528.16 Springfield Armory .45 info 16 of 24
-< There ain't no such thing.... >-
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RE: 13
I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been either.
The latest "tuning " I have had occasion to do was add an adjustable trigger
to an Auto Ordinance (Thompson) 45.
I did this only because the customer wanted one, not because the gun needed
one.
It is a stock government model that sells for $289.00 and it shoots 1 1/2" to
2 " groups at 25 yards right out of the box to the point of aim with the
issue fixed sights!
Matter of fact I aced a chipmunk with it at the same time I was shooting the
target after putting in the trigger. The chipmunk was at about 30-35 yards.
It didn't even need a trigger job! It breaks cleanly at 3 3/4 lbs.
You're saying that maybe this is an example of the "one in a million" that
might shoot good?
Nope. Just pick any brand. Any one. I'll bet a weeks pay it'll shoot as good or
better than ANY Colt made gun will right out of the box.
You really don't need to spend big bucks to get a good shooter. Most out of
the box 45 autos will be able to shoot better than the average person can
hold anyhow, so why spend an extra 100-150 $$$ for the Colt name??
What I was getting at in the last reply was that from a monetary standpoint
you are money ahead if you ever do decide to "accurize" your clunker at a
later time because if you do you will have a gun that's better than ANY colt
for a lot less $$$.
Of course you need not do any of it either. Most shoot just fine with no
tuning at all.
I (two weeks ago) had the opportunity to test fire 20 government model 45's
for the National Guard.
I spent all afternoon testing strictly for grouping ability.
I had two people helping me with posting targets and loading magazines and
data tabulation, but lucky me got to do all the shooting.
The pistols were all Army issue garden variety 45's made by several different
manufacturers. Colt, Singer, National Postal Meter, Ithaca, Remington Rand,
ect.. A real mix and match lot of guns.
The testing I did was to determine which guns had the best grouping ability
and to select the best 10 of the lot to be used in the National Guard
National Matches, Combat Match phase in Little Rock Arkansas this fall by our
shooters.
First let me make it clear that these guns were all strictly "government
model" guns. No fancy triggers, fixed sights, no trigger jobs, no accuracy
enhancements AT ALL. They were all as issued and taken from various armories
throughout the state strictly at ramdom.
Out of the 20 guns there were only three that would not shoot better than a 5
inch group at 25 yards. Some needed slight sight adjustment to move the
impact point, and all could benefit from a trigger job, but by and large it
was VERY difficult to select the best 10 out of 20.
Let me tell you,,, There ain't no such thing as an inaccurate 45. Some just
shoot better than others.
BTW, I was shooting at a standard 50 foot indoor rapid fire target at 25 yards
from a rest using military issue crimped in primer, standard M1911 "hard ball"
ammo, (not the fancy and accurate match stuff), and most guns were able to
keep all their shots comfortably in or very close to the black. Those groups
that weren't in the black because of misadjusted sights still managed to span
no more than 4 to 5 inches.
I'm sure had I been using a ransom rest or some such device to eliminate
shooter error and fatigue all but the 3 guns mentioned earlier would have
given a very credible performance and it would have been extremely hard to
select only 10. As it was, the average for all the groups, (discounting called
flyers and the 3 bogus guns), and we're talking 68 targets fired for group,
was 4 7/8 inches.
I shot 7 shot strings, (Four seven shot strings from each pistol using a
different magazine for each string), and ended up burning up 560 rounds in
the grouping test alone.
Function testing helped consume a few hundred more rounds preceeding the
grouping tests.
Suffice to say, I almost used up 1000 rounds of hard ball that afternoon,
went home with blurred vision and hammer bite had taken it's toll.
My hand was sore for a week!!
I never thought I'd ever get sick of shooting a 45, but that test changed my
mind. The pain made my grouping ability suffer a little towards the end but
the guns shot very well considering.
Like I said; There ain't no such thing as an inaccurate 45. some just shoot
better than others.
Corky
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Note 528.17 Springfield Armory .45 info 17 of 24
-< Round and round >-
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I'm trying to put this in a way that makes sense to others,
besides myself.
Yes, Paul, you are right in that there is no inherent guarentee
that just because it says "Colt" on it, the gun will outshoot
any and all others. Also, I am basing a lot of my opinions on
my own experience. I've had a few .45's here and there, mostly
Colts. I have also seen other guys lose bucks on off-brand guns
that they dumped money into. Many times unless you have a "biggie"
like Clark or Hoag do your gun, it will be hard to recoup money
invested. Really, wouldn't most serious competition shooters
rather build their own gun anyway instead of buying someone else's?
In all fairness, I haven't bought a newy-newy Colt in awhile so
they may have gone downhill last few years. And I haven't tried
a Series 80 either, although I hear that the trigger pulls are
poor "stock". Both the new Gov't I bought and the Gold Cup were
out-of-the-box adequate for my needs. At the time, they also
were better performers than an Essex I tried, for example. As
Corky so aptly put it, some shoot better than others.
As to the question "Do I buy for investment or shooting", the
answer is both. I like to be able to hit what I'm shooting at
when I'm shooting and I like to be able to maintain guns as an
investment when I'm just keeping them.And I like to know that if
I need/want to sell, I will have an easier time selling a gun
for more money, if only because of the "NAME".
All things being equal, buy a gun that suits your needs. And if
those needs include the name "colt" stamped on the slide, go
for it. If that doesn't matter to you, buy a SA. They must be
doing something right if they are backlogged that far.
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Note 528.18 Springfield Armory .45 info 18 of 24
-< Pay up Corky, you too Paul!! ;^) >-
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I bought a Colt GM in SS, my friend bought an AMT Hardballer. We
went out to the range, set up at 25 yds using 230 gr RNL with 4
grs of Bullseye. We'd shoot three rounds and then check the target.
His best group was 6 ins, mine was 1/2"! My worst was 3". I tried
his gun and the best group I could put up was 4"! These guns came
out of the box and went straight to the range. Consequently, his
Hardballer went back to the factory for a tune-up. When it came
back, it did shoot alot better. But, he still can't compete with
my Colt.
I realize this is only one example.
These guns where not meant to be real accurate, but if that's what
you want, the price difference between the two will be a drop in
the bucket compared to what it will cost to get them that way!!
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Note 528.19 Springfield Armory .45 info 19 of 24
-< "Thanks Guys" >-
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First off, I would like to thank all of you for your replies to
this note. The information was very helpfull and thru this note
I met some pretty good people. I get the feeling that by the end
of the summer both Roger and Rod will have me running the combat
courses like and old pro, I must say I'm looking forward to it.
I took the .45 out the other day and shot it for the first time
and I really liked it. How much money to spend on it at this time
I can't say. The question now is what kind of holster to get for
it, I guess I can leave that open for replies also.
Well, thanks again folks and I have another idea for note till
next time.
Bob
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Note 528.20 Springfield Armory .45 info 20 of 24
-< Rogers holster, Bianchi magazine pouch... >-
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For a combat holster you can't go wrong with the Rogers Plaxco world
speed holster. I'll bring mine in next week sometime. Tell me
when you'd be able to come by...
Roak
Get Bianchi magazine pouches... The Rogers are too tight...
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Note 528.23 Springfield Armory .45 info 23 of 24
-< I'm crushed... :-) >-
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RE: .18
>Sigh<, oh well,,,, I knew someone would *just have to* discover a Colt that
exhibited target grade accuracy right out of the box so they could prove me
wrong... :-)
Such is life.
The check is in the mail.... :-)
Corky
:-)
P.S. Hang onto that Colt. You have a rare one indeed that will shoot that
good without having to mess with it.
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Note 528.24 Springfield Armory .45 info 24 of 24
-< Did I hit the target??? >-
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Corky, my SS Colt comes with the "Accurizer" bushing and barrel,
so this may not be a fair comparision to your standard Govt. models.
Besides, I wouldn't know what to do with a super accurate firearm
anywho! ;^)