jkh@jade.UUCP (02/04/87)
I'm thinking of buying a handgun and would like some
advice from those of you that have some experience. My
preferences are for a semi auto larger than a 22, 9mm is
looking good right now. It should cost $300 to $400,
although if I find something I like I can go higher. The
barrel should be at least 4", I'd rather hit what I aim for
than conceal it in a pocket. I prefer double actions that
hold as many bullets in their magazines as possible, but
neither of these is a major criterion. A little background
info is in order.
Right now I have a Ruger MKII 22, a friend of mine has
a browning 22 semi and can sometimes borrow his brother's 38
revolver. We go out to the desert and stand cans up so far
away we can barely see them, then start plinking. On a good
day we can each hit those silly cans about a third of the
time with our 22s. We do it like this because we're lazy,
neither of us likes to go set the cans up again. We don't
like paper targets because they don't do anything when hit.
Obviously, neither of us is interested in competition shoot-
ing, nor in going to a range where we can only shoot paper.
I usually don't keep loaded guns around the house so home
defense isn't an issue.
Now for the serious questions. What is a 'good'
caliber to get? I mentioned 9mm is my current preference
but it's not set in concrete. What do I look for in a gun?
How about brands? Taurus seems to make some cheap guns, are
these only cheap in price or are they low quality? Ditto
for Llama. When I was looking for my 22 lots of gun dealers
told me Browning made a very nice gun, but what they showed
me was out of my price range. What do you think of Brown-
ing? Does anyone have any experience with the Glock 17?
People keep talking about their Colts in this group, I
gather you can get one for $500, then spend more money to
make it more accurate later on. Is this true? For those of
you in San Diego, what are you're experiences with local gun
dealers? If I wanted a revolver I could buy a 357 and shoot
38s out of it. What would this save me, and would it make
my accuracy with a 357 better or worse to practice with 38s?
Before I buy anything I plan to buy a book or two and read
up on what I'm doing, so whats a good book for a rank
beginner?
When we go out we shoot 1,000 to 1,500 22's in 2-3
hours. If we have the 38 we'll also take a box of 50 each.
Naturally, we can't afford to do this with a larger caliber.
What would it cost me to buy a reloader, and then materials
to load my own bullets? Whats a good reloader if I go this
route?
Whew, lots of questions here. I plan to go out looking
the weekend of 2/13, and if I buy it'll probably be in
March. Maybe April if you figure in the 2 week waiting
period. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Jim
Jim Harkins
Loral Instrumentation, San Diego
{ucbvax, ittvax!dcdwest, akgua, decvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!loral!jlhjkh@jade.UUCP (02/12/87)
Why do you want a bigger caliber just to knock over cans? Just for the boom? If you can afford to shoot 1500 rounds of anything besides .22, then you wouldn't be asking about "cheap" guns. Those larger calibers are very expensive to shoot. Even if you reload it will probably cost you four or five times as much as .22s. I think you will find .380s to be slightly more affordable than 9mm, but still more than .22s. Get a Walther PPK/S and it should last you a long time. I used to reload shotgun shells (I shot skeet and burned them by the thousand) and .44 Mags. It is an extremely boring pasttime. Recommended only for serious shooters and mental vegetables. If you want a totally new experience, I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk for sale, complete with Lee reloading set, reloading supplies (empty cases, primers, bullets, powder, books), and a real nice Lawrence belt and holster. Talk about a BOOM! --Brian
jkh@jade.UUCP (02/12/87)
Recommend you get your advice from a place like Weisser's in National
City, then go out and get quotes from the small independent dealers in
town - you're liable to save up to 30%.
If home defense is not an issue, sounds like you ought to stick with
.22's - after all it's good enough for Olympic shooters.
I own a Colt .45 myself, but if I were buying a new gun in 9mm right
now I'd go with the Glock - haven't fired it, but the reviews are great
and I'm not too proud to own a gun with "plastic" (synthetic composite
materials) parts.
Just random thoughts. Good shooting.
Robin Felix, U. of Hawaii Linguistics Dept.
UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!felix
ARPA: uhccux!felix@nosc.ARPA
INTERNET: felix@UHCC.HAWAII.EDUjkh@jade.UUCP (02/12/87)
One gun store in San Diego to visit is the Gun Company on Morena Blvd., just north of Friars Road and just east of I-5. Stay away from the Llamas. The quality that I have seen lately is terrible. The Stars are much better for about the same money. You might also look at the Astra A-80 in either 9mm Pb or .45 ACP. For about $250, it has the price, a decent reputation and double-action. Another pistol to consider is the Thompson .45 ACP pistol. This gun is very well made IN AMERICA. According to a friend who runs a range, after 4000 rounds, only minor parts had to be replaced to keep it going. It lists for $325. The Belgium Browning P-35s are very study, but are on the expensive side. The Hungarian copy is nearly identical and sells for half the price. Both are single action and must have the magazine safety removed to be useful. For plinking, I would go with the 9mm Pb, since the bullets in cal. .38 and 9mm are cheaper than those in .45 ACP. 9mm Pb has a flatter trajectory than the .45's. Some of the newer 9mm bullets from Hornady and Sierra in 9mm are much more accurate than the older models. For personal protection, the only choice is the .45 ACP. The Star PD may be something that fits into your pocket and pocket book. (pun intended :-) It is single action. Its aluminum frame will probably not last 4000 rounds. (But who shoots 4000 rounds?) Jon Kaplowitz
jkh@jade.UUCP (02/12/87)
Jim, I would like to respond to a few things for you. > > I'm thinking of buying a handgun and would like some >advice from those of you that have some experience. I have owned 2 9mm auto's. One S&W model 39, and one Heckler & Koch P9S. I highly recommend both. >hold as many bullets in their magazines as possible, but Be carefull with this one, some pistols will have jamming problems. > Right now I have a Ruger MKII 22, .. > ...We go out to the desert and stand cans up so far >away we can barely see them, then start plinking.... Good choice for 22 auto. I use mine for the same thing :-) >I usually don't keep loaded guns around the house so home >defense isn't an issue. Good Idea, the only thing I consider usefull for home defense is a 12 ga shotgun with a 19 and 1/4 inch barrel. It not only has good psychological value (to the 'bad guy'), you don't have to worry about missing if you were in a situation. Pistols are great, but under the kind of stress that situation makes, do you really want to try and hit something? If you have to point a gun a another person, you better be ready to use it, and if you're ready to use it you better be ready to kill said person should you have to. [ All good points, however, I couldn't help but put my two cents in. Shotguns *DO NOT* spread shot out appreciably at ranges one would be most likely to encounter a intruding felon. You had better damn well "worry about missing" with a shotgun or any other piece. I'll shut up now.. Sorry. -jh ] > Now for the serious questions. What is a 'good' >caliber to get? I mentioned 9mm is my current preference >but it's not set in concrete. What do I look for in a gun? >How about brands? Taurus seems to make some cheap guns, are >these only cheap in price or are they low quality? Ditto >for Llama. When I was looking for my 22 lots of gun dealers >... Does anyone have any experience with the Glock 17? >People keep talking about their Colts in this group, I >gather you can get one for $500, then spend more money to >make it more accurate later on. Is this true? For those of A good caliber is hard to define. It depends upon your preferances. I happen to like 9mm and .357mag. I might suggest looking around your area for both gun collector shows, and people who reload as a business. Try looking in the add section of you local paper for 'gun shows' or check around sporting goods stores. You not only will find the best deal on a firearm, but you will have fun drooling on all the neat stuff :-) As for the re-loading, I would not recommend this for the causual shooter. Re-loading takes a lot of time and skill. You would be better off looking for the guy who does it in his basement, and sells reloads on the side to finance his hobbys. I have a guy around here who sells .357 reloads for around $7/100 with my brass (you take in 100 spent rnds). Prices will vary. One last thing. Beware of any 'cheap' gun. Especially if you plan to shoot it as heavy as you your mk2. Things you want to look for are an all steel weapon. (I know that sounds strange but many autos have alloy frames and will wear faster than a steel frame) If in doubt, buy the more expensive firearm. S&W wheel guns for example one of the best you can buy. A good way to tell if a gun is 'good' is to check its resale value. It the value stays high, it is more that likely of a good make. I hope my rambelings help a little, enjoy, Dan Oh yea, one last thing, please ignore all spelling/grammer errors, I went to school in the US. :-) --- Dan Sweet ...!{ucbvax|ihnp4|seismo}!tektronix!reed!percival!sweet "If I want your opinion, I'll beat it out of ya!" -- C. Norris
jkh@jade.UUCP (02/24/87)
> Article: 2:16 > I think you will find .380s to be slightly more > affordable than 9mm, but still more than .22s. seem to be a push, maybe even cheaper for 9mm, since there's more demand > Get a Walther PPK/S and it > should last you a long time. Does anyone have experience with the Walther PP or Manuhrin PPK? Both are available in .22 and would seem to meet my DA semi-auto and cheap-to-shoot objectives.
jkh@jade.UUCP (02/24/87)
[deleted stuff about the Glock]
I was recently thumbing through some firearms magazine in a supermarket, and
noticed a review of the Glock. It was being tested by, I believe, some French
military force (and was later selected by them). One of the criteria was no
more than 10 failures in 10,000 rounds. The Glock failed *once*. According
to the article, the Glock beat the others "hands down, no contest" in *all*
other categories, also. I personally don't like the Glock grip; it feels too
fat. I'm also concerned about its lighter weight. Does this affect sight
recovery?
--
osmigo, UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas 78712
ARPA: osmigo@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!osmigo allegra!ut-ngp!osmigo gatech!ut-ngp!osmigo
seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigojkh@jade.UUCP (02/24/87)
>Good Idea, the only thing I consider usefull for home defense is > a 12 ga shotgun with a 19 and 1/4 inch barrel. It not only has good >psychological value (to the 'bad guy'), you don't have to worry about >missing if you were in a situation. Pistols are great, but under the >kind of stress that situation makes, do you really want to try and hit >something? If you have to point a gun a another person, you better be >ready to use it, and if you're ready to use it you better be ready to >kill said person should you have to. > >[ All good points, however, I couldn't help but put my two cents in. > Shotguns *DO NOT* spread shot out appreciably at ranges one would > be most likely to encounter a intruding felon. You had better damn > well "worry about missing" with a shotgun or any other piece. I'll shut > up now.. Sorry. -jh ] For serious home defense, the ONLY choice is a shotgun, whether it started life as a shotgun or as a handgun that you have loaded with shotshells. The reason is, of course, penetration. Any, repeat ANY, load you can put into a handgun that has reasonable probability (for me, that means 99%+) of taking out an intruder will also punch right through the walls of any normal house or apartment and still have enough energy to kill your daughter, the neighbor, or whomever is in that room. Something like a .357 magnum has a distinct possibility of retaining lethal energy after punching through several walls. Get a shotgun and load it with birdshot, e.g., 6s or maybe even 8s. P.S. Jordan, you're right about little spread, of course, but a good gunsmith can open the choke up a little beyond full-bore (which, technically, makes it a blunderbus) to help matters.
jkh@jade.UUCP (03/03/87)
In-Reply-To: <2597@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <2597@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> you write: > >For serious home defense, the ONLY choice is a shotgun, whether it started >life as a shotgun or as a handgun that you have loaded with shotshells. >The reason is, of course, penetration. Any, repeat ANY, load you can put >into a handgun that has reasonable probability (for me, that means 99%+) >of taking out an intruder will also punch right through the walls of any >normal house or apartment and still have enough energy to kill your >daughter, the neighbor, or whomever is in that room. Something like a >.357 magnum has a distinct possibility of retaining lethal energy after >punching through several walls. I really doubt that my .45 Sierra "super-splat" hollow-points will come through a body, and any decent wall is likely to do them a lot of damage. Some remnant could come flying through at an uncomfortable velocity, but it shouldn't be nearly as bad as a "Warning: I don't brake for nobody" .357 Magnum. -- --Craig ...{ucbvax,sun}!pixar!good
jkh@jade.UUCP (03/03/87)
I have owned, carried, and shot a Walther PP in .380 for about 5 years. I shoot it about 3000 rounds a year (yes, I have a progressive reloader). It is still pristine-looking, I never have trouble with it, and the action has improved with age. Ahh craftsmanship!
jkh@jade.UUCP (03/03/87)
>> Article: 2:16 >> I think you will find .380s to be slightly more >> affordable than 9mm, but still more than .22s. > I would not want to rely on anything less than a 9mm or a .38 to stop a man. > seem to be a push, maybe even cheaper for 9mm, since there's more demand If you figure you're going to keep a gun 5 years or more, an extra hundred one way or the other won't matter much. Go with quality for better reliability and better resale value. Derek Ross, Rick A Messinger Washburn Graphics Inc mcnc!unccvax!wgivax!ram
jkh@jade.BERKELEY.EDU (Jordan K. Hubbard) (03/09/87)
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jkh@jade.UUCP (03/21/87)
In-Reply-To: <2596@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> The Glock is not my idea of a fine firearm. The frame is plastic with embedded sheet metal for the frame rails. Service life is 5000 rounds. If you want one, by all means, but do not expect it to give the service life of a conventional pistol.
jkh@jade.UUCP (03/21/87)
In-Reply-To: <2597@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> I disagree with the advice to use such small shot. Even at close ranges #8 would most likely produce mayhem but not lethal force. #4 buck is as large as I would go but I would think very hard before using anything smaller than BB. A 12 gauge generally has muzzle energy comparable to a 30-06 but you can spread it too fine. Very small shot dissipates all of its energy in barely 2-3 inches of penetration -- fine for birds, and less than half of what is needed, according to study, for a stopping-grade hit. It is definitely not enough for someone high enough on drugs or adrenalin or psychosis to attack a man holding a shotgun. The truth probably lies somewhere between #4 buck and BBs.
jkh@jade.UUCP (03/30/87)
> In-Reply-To: <2597@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> > > I disagree with the advice to use such small shot. Even at close ranges > #8 would most likely produce mayhem but not lethal force. #4 buck is as > large as I would go but I would think very hard before using anything > smaller than BB. A 12 gauge generally has muzzle energy comparable to > a 30-06 but you can spread it too fine. Very small shot dissipates all > of its energy in barely 2-3 inches of penetration -- fine for birds, and > less than half of what is needed, according to study, for a stopping-grade > hit. It is definitely not enough for someone high enough on drugs or > adrenalin or psychosis to attack a man holding a shotgun. The truth > probably lies somewhere between #4 buck and BBs. > Has anyone seen any real research on this subject? I've read that shot as small as #9 (bird) is appropriate in a close range defense situation (I don't recall where -- American Rifleman maybe?) and I've seen all manner of opinion here. But has anyone done any actual experiments (not on humans, I hope)? Have any gelatin block experiments been performed? What about bone penetration? How is bone simulated? How much does the shot pattern have to spread before this lack of penetration becomes a problem? I will readily grant that a *single* number nine pellet has little penetrating ability. But what about 500 or so of them striking within a diameter of, say, 4 to 6 inches? Doesn't something like the succession of single drops of water wearing away stone take place? Maybe this summer I'll do some informal tests to determine pattern diameter at close range. I'd also be interested in experiments with wall penetration at close range. Has anyone tried anything like that? I seem to recall an article on something like that but can't recall where. Interior walls should be easy to simulate with a couple of layers of gypsum board separated by 2x4's. If any of you have actually experimented with anything like this, how about posting method & results. Charlie crs@lambda.lanl.gov sorsby@hc.dspo.gov
jkh@jade.BERKELEY.EDU (Jordan K. Hubbard) (04/20/87)
Article: 4:9 In-Reply-To: <2964@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> Cc: Status: RO Ref. articles <2964@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> and <2597@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> >> >> I disagree with the advice to use such small shot. >> >Has anyone seen any real research on this subject? The "real research" that I've seen is in The Shotgun in Combat Tony Lesce Desert Publications Cornville, AZ 86325 ISBN 0-87947-430-0 (usually also available from Paladin Press) and in some forsaken U.S. Government publication. Trouble is, the scientists aren't shotgunners, and the shotgunners aren't scientists. The advantage of the above book is that it has 40 pages of BEEG PITCHURES. The arguments will still rage over how these photographs and drawings should be interpreted, but it's nice to have a small library of mantargets, wallboards, and cinderblocks that have been shot at with known loads at known ranges. Having just loaded up my derringer with 2 1/2" .410 shotshells using #9 shot, I found, much to my disconsternation, that a waterfilled plastic bottle will pick up only dings and some minor leaks at anything beyond a couple of feet. All that stuff that I've been reading about how quickly small shot disappates energy is even more true than I understood..... (Although we can argue that a plastic bottle has a tougher hide than anything that wants to bite me.) Eric (the DBA) Lund